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MARYLAND & RARE BOOK ROOM 
UNIVERSITY CI' MARYLA-ND LIBRAMC 
CQIJLEQE PATvK, I-ID. 



OO NO I ClRCUUMt 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



COMMISSION MEETING 

University of Maryland School of Law 
Baltimore, Maryland 

November 21, 19 66 



VOLUME X 



/GO/ 

vo/. ^o 
/^o/^/<^ 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 



WILLIAM PRESTON LANE, JR. 
Honorary Chairman 

H. VERNON ENEY 

Chairman 



ROBERT J. MARTINEAU 
Secretary 



E. DALE ADKINS. JR. 

HARRY BARD 

CALHOUN BOND 

ELSBETH LEVY BOTHE 

FR.\NKLIN L. BURDETTE 

RICHARD W. CASE 

HAL C. B. CLAGETT 

CHARLES DELLA 

MRS. MAURICE R FREEDLANDER 

JAMES O'C. GENTRY 

JOHN R. HARGROVE 



STANFORD HOFF 
MARTIN D. JENKINS 
CLARENCE W. MILES 
EDWARD T. MILLER 
CHARLES MINDEL 
JOHN W. MITCHELL 
E. PHILLIP SAYRE 
ALFRED L. SCANLAN 
L. MERCER SMITH 
MELVIN J. SYKES 
FURMAN L. TEMPLETON 
WILLIAM C. WALSH 



• **•*•• 



JOHN C. BROOKS 
Executive Director 



KALMAN R. HETTLEMAN 
Assistant to the Executive Director 



William Prescott Allen (Resigned January 5^ 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. (Resigned May IS, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile (Resigned December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliam.s (Resigned September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. (Resigned August 2, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. (Resigned July 12, 1966) 



******** 

700 Mercantile Trust Building 
Baltimore, Maryland 21202 



CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COMMISSION 
COMMITTEES 



COMMITTEE ON ELECTIVE FRANCHISE 
AND DECLARATION OF RIGHTS 

James O'C. Gentry, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
July 12, 1966) 
Charles Delia 
Leah S. Freedlander 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Stanford Hoff 
John W. Mitchell 
(appointed on November 9, 1966) 
Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lewis D. Asper, Reporter 



COMMITTEE ON THE EXECUTIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Charles Mindel 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Furman L. Templeton 

Garrett Power, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
George L. Russell, Jr. 
(served as Chairman until 
July 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE LEGISLATIVE 
DEPARTMENT 

Harry Bard, Chairman 
Charles Delia 
Edward T. Miller 
Charles Mindel 
Alfred L. Scanlan 
John H. Michener, Reporter 
(appointed on September 12, 19 66) 



Martin D. Jenkins 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
William C. Walsh 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Alexander Harvey, II 
(served as Reporter until 
September 12, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 
DEPARTMENT 

Robert J. Martineau, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 
August 2, 1966) 
Elsbeth Levy Bothe 
John R. Hargrove 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Clarence W. Miles I 

Melvin J. Sykes 
(appointed on July 12, 1966) 
Lawrence F. Rodowsky, Reporter 



Richard W. Case 
(served until June 6, 
William J. McWilliams 



1966) 



(served as 
September 

Ridgely P. 

(served as 
September 
August 2, 

George L. 



Chairman until 
10, 1965) 
Melvin, Jr. 
Chairman from 
10, 1965 to 
19 66) 
Russell , 



(served until July 
E. Phillip Sayre 
(served until June 
L. Mercer Smith 
(served until June 
William C. Walsh 
(served until June 



Jr. 
12, 

6, 

6, 

6, 



1966) 
1966) 
1966 
1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STATE FINANCE 
AND TAXATION 



COMMITTEE ON MISCELLANEOUS 
PROVISIONS 



Richard W. Case, Chairman 

Calhoun Bond 

Stanford Hoff 

Martin D. Jenkins 

L. Mercer Smith 

Stephen H. Sachs, Reporter 



Elsbeth Levy Bothe, Chairman 

Leah S. Freedlander 

James O'C. Gentry 

Furman L. Templeton 

Lewis A. Noonberg, Reporter 

(appointed February 26, 1966) 



Harry Bard 

(served until June 6, 1966) 
Charles Mindel 
(served until Jiine 6, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON POLITICAL 
SUBDIVISIONS AND LOCAL 
LEGISLATION 

Hal C. B. Clagett, Chairman 
(appointed Chairman on 

December 2, 1965) 
Franklin L. Burdette 
Leah S. Freedlander 
Clarence W. Miles 
(served as Chairman until 

December 2, 1965) 
L. Mercer Smith 
John B. Howard, Reporter 
(appointed on May 12, 1966) 



E. Dale Adkins , Jr. 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 1966 to 

December 20, 1966) 
William J. McWilliams 
(served until September 10, 1965) 
Ridgely P. Melvin, Jr. 
(served until August 2, 1966) 
Furman L. Templeton 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
John Martin Jones, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 23, 19 66) 



William Prescott Allen 
(served until January 5,1966) 
Ernest N. Cory, Jr. 
(served until May 13, 1966) 
Walter R. Haile 
(served from July 12, 1966 

to December 20, 1966) 
Edward T. Miller 
(served until June 6, 1966) 
Frank A. DeCosta, Jr. 
(served as Reporter until 

February 22, 1966) 



COMMITTEE ON STYLE 

Franklin L. Burdette , Chairman 

E. Dale Adkins, Jr. 

Harry Bard 

Richard W. Case 

Martin D. Jenkins 

Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 



Calhoun Bond 

(served until June 6, 1966) 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

(served until June 6, 1966) 






COMMITTEE ON CONVENTION PROCEDURES 

Alfred L. Scanlan, Chairman 

Hal C. B. Clagett 

James O'C. Gentry 

Robert J. Martineau 

Edward T. Miller 

John W. Mitchell 

(appointed on November 9, 1966) 

E. Phillip Sayre 

Eugene Pitrof, Reporter 



Franklin L. Burdette 

(served until June 

Charles Delia 

(served until June 

Stanford Hoff 

(served until June 

Clarence W. Miles 

(served until June 

George L. Russell, Jr. jj 

(served until June 



6, 


1966) 


6, 


1966) 


6, 


1966) 


6, 


1966) 


Jr 




6, 


1966) 



;;j 



CONSTITUTIOmL CONVENTION COMMISSION . 

Meeting of the Constitutional Convention 

Commission held on Monday, November 21, 1966, at 10 a.m., 

at the University of Maryland Law School, Baltimore, 

Maryland , 

PRESENT: 

H. Vernon Eney, Esquire, 

Chairman of the Commission 
Honorable E. Dale Adkins, Jr., Member 
Dr. Karry Bard, Member 
Calhoun Bond, Esquire, Member 
Mrs. Elsbeth Levy Bo the. Member 
Dr. Franklin L, Burdette, Member 
Richard W. Case, Esquire, Member 
Hal C. B. Clagett, Esquire, Member 
Mr, Charles Delia, Member 

Mrs. Maurice P. (Leah Sc) Freedlander, Member 
James O' Conor Gentry, Esquire, Member 
V/alter R. Hailc, Esquire, Member 
Stanford Hoff, Esquire, Member 
John B. Howard, Esquire, Member 
Dr. Martin D. Jenkins, Member 
Robert J. Martineau, Esquire, Member 
Edward T. Miller, Esquire, Member 
Charles Mindel, Esquire, Member 
Jolin W. Mitchell, Esquire, Member 
Mr. E. Phillip Sayre, Member 
Alfred L. Scanlan, Esquire, Member 
Dr. Furman I. Tcmpleton, Member 



Reported by° 
VJ. P. Banister 



Tilt: JACK SATOMON HEPOiMINC SERVICK 
Court R,, •<>"«'» Ballirnurr 2. M.rjIanJ Ir.inflor, 9.6:60 



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ALSO PRESENT: 



John C. Brooks, Esquire, Executive Director 

Dr. Clinton Ivan Uinslox^, Consultant 

Mr. Robert Loevy, Consultant 

Mrs. Margaret Kostritsky, Reporter 

Mrs. Ronald Fishbein, Staff Member 

Mr. Kalman Hettlemnn, Staff Member 

Mr. Eugene Pitrof, Reporter 



THE CHAIPJ1A.K2 You have been handed this 
morning a staff memorandum of November 21. While V7aiting 
for one or two people v7hom I expect I would suggest that 
you could read that V7ith profit because it v/ill make it 
a little easier to discuss the report of the Committee 
a little later in the morning. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

THE CHA.IRMAN: I thought Judge Adkins 
V7ould be here by nov; but he must have been delayed. V7e 
better go ahead. 

As all of you knov7, the minutes of the 
last tv70 meetings have not been circulated, September 
and October meetings. This is because of the difficulty 
in getting the transcripts analyzed and sufficient memoranda 
prepared for the preparation of the minutes. Ue have gotten 



Court Buioritra 



THU JVCK SM.dMON KEIOiniSC SERVICK 

100 r.i'.it.ibic i!.,;i.ii.ig 

fcallimorr 2, Mjryhu.l 



Leiint'i"! 9-6r(iO 



some additional assistance, as you will learn about 
in a fev7 minutes, and this work is nov; moving forward 
rather briskly. We have not yet formally approved 
minutes of the August meeting because I understood 
Judge Adkins had a correction he V7anted to suggest. 
Since he is not here, we will again pass the approval 
of those minutes. 

Report of the Secretary. 

MR. MARTINEAU: Nothing. 

THE CEA^IRM^N: Report of the Executive 
Director. 

MR. BROOKS: The Chairman has mentioned we 
had some changes in the staff since the last meeting. 
As some of you are aware, V7e had a rather large group 
involved in research during the summer, primarily under 
the Federal grant V7e had, graduate students from 
political science and lav7 students. Most of these 
students have returned to school at this point. We 
do have one V7ho is a graduate of the University of 
Maryland Lav7 School still V7ith us, Ken Lassen, V7ith us 
this morning. In addition, V7e have employed Mrs. Ronald 



Court Rtporirrt 



IHV. J\CK' SAI-OMO.N RKPOIUING SLRVlCt 
lot) rMiit-tl'I*- BuiUlirg 
BaltSrnorr 2, M3r>tan(l 



Lexington 9-6."oP 



Fishbein, with us this morning, I would like to intro- 
duce her, who will be helping us in research and also 
putting together the report of the Commission we hope 
to have assembled and delivered to the Governor in 
January. To help us with a number of administrative 
matters and also working on going through some of the 
transcripts of recent meetings, to write the preliminary 
notes for minutes of those meetings, we have employed 
Kalman Hettleman, known as Buzzy, who will be v/ith us 
also for the next three or four months. I v7ould 
like to introduce him. 

Mr. Ency and I attended the National 
Municipal League Annual Meeting in Boston the first 
three days of this past week. There Mr. Eney gave one 
of the prinicpal papers dealing v/ith preparation for 
Constitutional Convention. I wish all of you could 
have been there for that. This v^as an area of vital 
importance and interest of many of the people partici- 
pating because so many states are contemplating Consti- 
tutional Conventions. 

Some of you are av7are probably that Kentucky, 



THE J\CK SMOMON RF.l'OF.TlNC SERVICK 
Court Rtporuri Bsltiniorr 2. MaryUnJ Lrxinffon f-iTtO 



1 which did not have a convention but had a Constitution 

2 voted on Tuesday a week ago, which had been drafted 

3 by a Commission, then submitted to the General Assembly, 

4 which approved it, referred it to the public for 

5 referendum, was defeated by a vote of something like 

6 four to one . 

7 The Florida experience, at the moment v/e 

8 have distributed to all of you copies of the Florida 

9 Constitution. That one also \ms one not drafted by a 

10 Constitutional Convention. It V7as not voted on last 

11 election Tuesday a week ago but V7ill be submitted sorae- 

12 tim.e in February or March to a special referendum of 

13 the public. Indications gleaned from talking V7ith 

14 persons at this particular meeting were that there is 

15 very little hope that this Constitution V7ill be ratified 

16 either. The anticipation is that it v;ill be defeated 

17 by at least a two to one vote. 

18 I mentioned previously the experience in 

19 Rhode Island. That Convention is still in progress, 

20 has been since December, '64, The experience there is 

21 that they hope to complete their redraft of a Constitution 



Court Reporters 



TUt J\CK S\rOMON KF.I'Or.TlNC SLFIVICK 

100 i:.iiii..M.- n,:n.!ir.g 

B.Iiimorr 2, MarylinJ 



Ifinfon »-«."(■() 



1 before long although It is still only involving about 

2 four major changes from the present Constitution. The 

3 hope there is very dim. They aren't anticipating 

4 anything like a tv70 to one defeat, they think it V7ill 

5 be somewhat larger than that. 

6 Not to be discouraging, but this gives you 

7 an idea of V7hy so many states are interested in this 

8 kind of V7ork at the moment. 

9 MRS. BOTIIE: I wondered if you had an idea 

10 why in Kentucky, V7hat V7ere the main issues? 

11 MR. BROOKS: Apparently in Kentucky besides 

12 the political factors there was a lot of hostility to 

13 the very method of drav7ing up the Constitution. It 

14 V7as thought that this product of a Blue Ribbon Commission, 

15 which then was not considered by a convention itself, 

16 was not representative of V7hat most people thought 

17 they wanted. It was suspect to say the least. " ' 

18 DR. BURDETTE: Should have one note of 

19 optimism. Amendments proposed and reported by a 

20 Citizens Commission in Tennessee V7ere adopted. The one 

21 that V7ent through another process lost. 



Court R*'portfrt 



THE J^CK SMOMON llKI'Or.Tl.NC SEKVICF. 
100 i:.!'ii<oblf Iluil'iiiig 
Bahimorc 2, Maryland 



Lexinflon 9-6.'60 



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MR. BROOKS: There were also sessions at 
this particular convention in Boston dealing with the 
holding of a Constitutional Convention and again it V7as 
reiterated by those v7ho participated in the Michigan 
as V7ell as the Rhode Island Conventions that V7e v;ould 
do V7ell in proposing a sound set of rules before the 
Convention meets V7hich they can survey and then adopt 
or change as they see fit because of their experiences 
with trying to write the rules after they assembled 
to begin the v7ork of the Convention itself. 

There were also sessions dealing with 
metropolitan government and problems in this area 
in strengthening the executive branch of the government. 
The Chairman probably will like to expand on some of 
those sessions as v^ell as perhaps some of the private 
conversations with persons at this meeting. 

We had an opportunity to talk to some of 
those parsons who have been consultant to this group 
before. For instance, Dr. John VJheeler V7as in attendance, 
as V7ell as persons V7e hope to also involve in a seminar 
on problems of regional and metropolitan governraent 



J^^^^^-hj^^^--^O^^Q^^S;G-^^^ 



Court R*port€r» 



100 Kquitablr Riiilfiing 
Bal'.iniorc 2, Mar'^lanJ 



Itxington 9.t:t>0 



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I might suggest any of the Committees that 
have not planned to do so that it would be very helpful 
if all Committees of this Commission could have, if they 
plan to have another meeting, something close to a 
final meeting of the Committee within the next two 
weeks so that we can have a final report from each of 
the Committees that has not submitted one. 

At this point it becomes imperative that 
V7e drav7 together the final reports of each of the 
Committees if we are to have a report even by the end 
of January. We think it very important that we now 
report to the Governor before he leaves office. Thank 
you. 

MR. MILLER: With all the bad political 
nev7s, I vjondered if any of those states had a prc- 
convention referendum or anything to sort of soften the 
way? 

MR. BROOKS: No, sir. 

THE CRAIRM^\N: Not one. 

MR. MILLER: V7e have at least got that. 

THE Cli^.XRx'lAN: X v7ould like to add a few 



Court Reportert 



THK JACK S\10\10\ KF.l'Or.TlNC Sf.RVlCh 
100 Eq-.iilablr liiiii.liiig 
Billiniorc 2. MarjUnJ 



Ltxinitcn 9 6760 





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comments to V7hat Mr. Brooks has said about some of the 




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things we learned at the Boston conference. 




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I came av/ay V7ith tc70 very strong impressions. 




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One of V7hich was a matter of considerable disappointment. 




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The other, if anything I suppose, v/as a matter of some 




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relief. 




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The first vjas that V7e V7ere able to get just 




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no suggestions at all as to the formulation of our 




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report or our v7ork book or even the matter of drafting 




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the Constitution itself. The reason we v;ere not is 




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a m/itter that all of us have been suspecting from the 




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reading V7e have been doing but is definitely confirmed 




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by the conversations V7ith numerous people in Boston. 




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That is that none of the other states in preparation 




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for a Convention has undertaken to prepare the kind 




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of report or v;ork book that we have been talking about. 




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There is tremendous interest in it and 




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among some at least an expressed feeling c£ skepticism 




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that it is going to be por;sible for us to get such a 




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report in less than a period of three or four years. 




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Real skepticism that we could possibly have a report of 






THF. J\tK SM.OMON KF.POr.TINC SllRVJCK 

ino Vqwit.11,1.- lluiMirs 

Court K, porters Balllrion- 2, ^rar)!in.J Ltxingfrtn 9-6:t>0 





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the nature that we contemplate by January of this 
year. 

The feeling of relief I had was that at 
least v/e did not find that any other states had tried 
what we have tried and failed. The failures of the 
other states, for the most part they were all failures, 
resulted from procedures which are quite different from 
those we have been following. In the first place, as 
indicated in response to Mr, Miller's question, none of 
the other states had preliminarily a referendum to 
take the sense of the people. The Kentuclcy experiment 
if it proved anything, I certainly wouldn't express 
any viev;3 about it one V7ay or the other because I don't 
know a thing about Kentucky politics , the general 
feeling expressed by several people there vjho had 
participated actively in the drafting of the Constitution 
was that the overwhelming rejection was an emphatic 
rejection by the people of that method of procedure. 
Their procedure there was in effect to have a ComiTiission 
such as this, appointed Commission, prepare a draft of 
a Constitution v7ithout an elaborate explanatory report. 



Court RrpcrUn 



TME J\CK SATOMON KKi'OKTINC Si RVIC.F; 
Baltiiiiort 2, Mar)Und 



Lexinfton 9-tTtO 





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submit it to the Legislature, not to a Convention, 




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have it approved by the Legislature, then submitted 




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to the people. There V7as apparently also a campaign 




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to obtain a favorable vote but not a campaign to 




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educate the public on the constitutional issues 




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involved. 




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Those who were present from Kentucky had 




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not yet recovered from the effect of the slapping by 




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the electorate and they were completely pessimistic, 




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particularly as to the prospect of any state accomplish- 




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ing any constitutional revision in any form at all in 




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the foreseeable future. 




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Rhode Island, quite frankly, I think, the 




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feeling of people from Rhode Island, there V7as that 




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they are going through an exercise in futility. That 




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at somo point they will come up with a report that no 




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one, not even the Constitutional Convention of Rhode 




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Island, anticipates will even be given very serious 




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consideration. They anticipate that at some point they 




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V7ill have a different kind of procedure v7orked out to 




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accomplish constitutional revision that is vastly 






THE JACK SALOMON RF.PORTINC SLRVICK 

100 KquitjI.lf Huil,iing 

Courf RtpoiITt Baltimore 2. MjrjUnJ Ltxinilon <)-(,:(.0 







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different from V7hat they are doing now. As you know, 




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their convention has been meeting about two years nov7. 


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I think they meet once a month and debate and discuss 


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but really accomplish practically nothing. 




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The Chairman of the Convention V7as present 




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and participated in the discussion in Boston. He 




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certainly vjas anything but optimistic. 




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New York's experience or lack of experience 




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was also illuminating. They have a preparatory Con-^nis- 




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sion. The Commission has been apparently tied up or 




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tied down with politics and lack of funds for the 




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entire period of its existence. Until very recently it 




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had accomplished nothing at all. 




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It now has been torn asunder by conflicts 




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bet^7een the staff and the Convention, V7ith resignations 




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of the Executive Director, and the v7hole setup of the 




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Convention as described at the meeting, of the preparator}; 




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Commission, is entirely different from anything we have 




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been attempting to do. The Commission is politically 




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oriented V7ith very definite attempts to balance the 




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representation in the Commission among the various 






THK JVCK SAIOMON KF PORTING StHVICE 

100 >:.,ii:<ablc Duil.iir.g 

Court H<poiUrt Eillimore 2. MaryljnJ Ltxintlt>n 9.t>:t0 





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1 parties, to make it partisan but representative of all 

2 parties. Chairmanships of subcommittees are allotted 

3 on this basis and apparently each committee then goes 

4 about the task of creating its own staff and undertaking 

5 preparation of its own part of the document and report 

6 without a great deal of relation to the rest of the 

7 Commission. One of their procedures, conmented on as 

8 being quite different from vjhat we talked about, is the 

9 fact that many of their Commiss5.on meetings, one had 

10 the impression this V7as m.ost of them, vzere not public 

11 meetings, that there was no effort to involve the 

12 public in the questions beD.ng considered by the 

13 Committees and by the Commission itself. 

14 I had the impression that the Coirnnission 

15 as a Commission is simply not functioning in a reviev? 

16 of the reports of its subcommittees in the manner in 

17 V7hich this Commission is functioning but rather is 

18 merely exercising a sort of loose general supervision 

19 over the work of the various Committees . 

20 The whole subject of constitutional revision 

21 v.-'ac dccmad important enough by the persons v7orking out 



Court fitporten 



THE JACK S\MIM0.\ KF.POKI INC SERVICE 
100 l:nuitahlf Buil.ling 
Baltimore 2, Mar)IanJ 



LtMinflon 9-6"«0 



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1 the program for the Municipal League that they had one 

2 of the morning sessions and one of the afternoon sessions, 

3 work shop sessions, devoted entirely to this subject 

4: so that there was a full day of discussion of the V7holc 

5 matter of constitutional revision and procedures for 

6 it. 

7 Some feeling that V7hat V7e are attempting, 

8 even in drafting a Constitution, is a complete exercise 

9 in futility, that it accomplishes nothing, and could 

10 even do harm, but I must say that the predominant, 

11 very greatly predominant, view V7as that the possibility 

12 of a convention being able to accomplish anything v7ithout 

13 very extensive preparatory work by some group V7as very 

14 evident, I v;ould say certainly nine out of ten or 

15 perhaps even a higher proportion of those participating 

16 in the discussion indicated very strong views. 

17 I think the same could be said of the notion 

18 that the Convention should be an elected body, A 

19 great diversity of opinion as to hov7 it should be 

20 elected as to V7hethsr it should be partisan or nQnprirtisr.n 

21 as to V7hcther there should be definite attem.pts made 



THE J\CK S\Iin;ON KKPORTING SERVICF 
Court R.porUT, balliii-.orf 2. MalyljrJ tfii.i;'or, 9.6:60' 



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1 parties and geographic areas, et cetera. No unanimity ^ 

2 of opT.nion that I could detect as to which might be 

3 preferable, 

4 One other big thing that I noticed in 

5 discussions not only of constitutional revision generally 

6 but of the problem V7ith v?hich we are struggling very 

7 hard, namely, the question of political subdivisions, 

8 V7as that the situations varied so greatly from state 

9 to state that it is exceedingly dangerous to look to 

10 V7hat another state has done in this area and indeed 

11 in any area of constitutional revision without Icnowing 

12 fairly accurately what the political organization of 

13 the state is not only as to political parties but as 

14 to organisation of the geographic and political 

15 subdivisions of the state, 

16 In Maryland, as all of us knov;, the county 

17 is the predominant politi-cal organization but in many 

18 states the county has almost ceased to exist as a 

19 governing unit. Unless this fact is recognized when you 

20 look at the procedures being considered by a particular 

21 state, it is very difficult to try to use what thciy do 



THE JA.CK SAIOMON KF.POKTINC SE.KN ICE 

100 Equitable IiuiLIir.g 

Court R.yorur, Ballimore 2. Marylana leMinflon 9-6:t,0 



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1 as a model for us. 

2 For instance, in some states, as New Jersey 

3 and Pennsylvania, the entire state is divided into 

4: incorporated municipalities so there is not one square 

5 foot of either of those states that is not included 

6 in an incorporated municipality. The result is their 
V attitudes tov7ard counties and to municipalities is 

8 exactly the converse of ours. They think of the 

S county as merely a group that has some historical and 

10 traditional status but really is not being meaningful 

il in the sense of governing. Yet they cannot understand 

^'2 at all hov? V7e can possibly govern in Maryland vyithout 

13 municipalities to accomplish the job on the local 

14: level. 

15 A number of other situations exist in this 

16 area which left me with a feeling that vje cannot in 

IV solving the problems of metropolitan areas even though 

18 they V7ere discussed at tremendous length in the Boston 

19 conference, V7e cannot simply look to V7hat some other 

20 state has done and adapt it to our purposes. Me have 

21 got to look at the problem in our ov7n vzay. I think this 



THE J \CK S\rCiMO.\ RF.rORTlNG SERVICF. 

100 Kqiiilablf n.iil.Ung 

Co:.rl Rf(,o-(prj Baltimore 2, MarylanJ Ltxinilfn l.tTtiO 



17 



1 is highl5,ghted for us by the fact that the problems 

2 which exist in Maryland V7ith respect to the Washington 

3 area, for instance, are so vastly different from 

4 those which exist for us V7ith respect to the Baltimore 

5 area. The Washington area, for instance, is complicated 

6 by the necessity of considering interstate problems, 

7 relationship V7ith the District and v;ith Virginia, which 

8 doesn^t exist at all in connection V7ith the Baltimore 

9 area . 

10 1 mention those things particularly because 

11 I think the Seventh Report of the Corrjaittee on Political 

12 Subdivisions, V7hich we will consider later this morning, 

13 has almost, if not entirely, settled for our purposes 

14 many of the issues. Nevertheless there are a few 

15 important policy m.atters V'7hich must be decided by us 

16 today. I just don't think you get a great deal of 

17 comfort from looking at V7hat some other state or 

18 metropolitan area has done to solve the problem. So 

19 much for the m.eeting of the National Municipal League. 

20 It gives me great pleasure to announce 

21 formally v?bat X am sure every member of the Commission 



Court Ft porttrs 



THF. JVCK SALOMON UKPOI-TINC SEKVICK 
100 r.qi.ilahlc rtuiUhr? 
F.a'tiniorr 2, Maryland 



Ltxingicn 9-bToO 



18 



1 
2 
3 

5 
6 
7 

8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 



and staff here this morning already knov7s, that is 
that our raomber, VJalter Haile, is, X think it is, the 
fourth member of this Commission to be elevated to the 
Judiciary. All of us extend to him our heartiest 
congratulations but I must say also that I telephoned 
him irrsnediately to ask him not to be in too great a 
rush to assume his duties because he still has some 
work to complete with us. Do ji^ou know yet when you 
will go on the Bench? 

^Cl. K^ilLE: Thank you. December 16 is 
the date. 

THE CHAIilllf^N: That makes us take a deep 
breath. A lot v.-'ill happen between now and middle of 
December. 

Another matter that I want to bring to your 
attention has to do v/ith the matter of political 
subdivisions that V7e have been discussing so much and 
will discuss later this morning. 

In an effort to encourage public discussion 
of this issue and bring an awaren3ss of it to the people, 
to the people v,ho v;ill be voting on election of delegates j 



Court K<iiC:lrii 



THK JACK SALOMON KF.r-ORTl.NC StPVlCK 
100 Kquitablr lUiiMing 
B»!tniiorf 2. Mjrjl.m.l 



lexin|fon 9-0 ToO 



, 


19 • 


1 

; 
1 


1 


to those who will be running for delegates, and to the 




2 


Legislature, the Cora-nission requested Morgan College, 




3 


Johns Hopkins University, University of Maryland, and 




4 


Goucher College to sponsor a seminar or work shop to 




5 


discuss these problems. All four institutions have 




6 


agreed to do so . VJithin the next few days they 




7 


will issue invitations to a group to attend a special 




1 ® 


session V7hich we thought v;ould be held at Goucher 




9 


College on December 9 and 10. VJe have a problem, as 




10 


many of you I am sure V7ill recognize, in that there 




11 


is a Colt game on the afternoon of December 10. We 




12 


seem to ba beset V7ith problems of conflicts V7ith foot- 




13 


ball games. I think we will probably have to go ahead 




14 


notV7iths tending that possible conflict simply because 




15 


of the difficulty in getting the various people we V7ant 




16 


to participate in agreement as to another date. 




17 


MR, CASE: That's not just another Colt 




18 


game. That's the Green Bay game. 




19 


THE CRMRIIAN: The general idea of the 




20 


work shop is that we V7ill in a two-day session, wliich 




21 


may perhaps be shortened to a day and a half, have six 

1 
1 






thl Jack sm'imon Rr.po.'uiNC stRVicK 

100 K.viilablc: Duil.img 
Ccun R,porU„ Ea!t;.norf 2. iUryLnJ Uxinflon <l.6>n 



20 



1 or eight people from out of the state, recognized as 

2 outstanding authorities in this general area, attend 

3 the v7ork shop and invite perhaps 75 people from Maryland 

4 V7ho either have ideas or are in pdsition to influence 

5 ideas with respect to metropolitan government in 

6 Maryland. We do not want to have the outside people 

7 deliver a series of lectures but instead will try to 

8 promote a discussion of the problem and possible 

9 solutions by the local people with the suggested solu- 

10 tions being either praised or critici2ed by the outside 

11 so-called experts. The plans that are shap5.ng up 

12 look like the conference could be a very helpful one. 

13 Members of the Corrmission will, of course, be invited 

14 and will be sent notices vjell in advance of the date 

15 giving you all details, 

16 There will be a reception and buffet supper 

17 on Friday evening at the campus borne of Dr. Kraushaar, 

18 President of Gouchor, in an effort to promote in a 

19 very infori::al vray the kind of discussion which V7e 

20 hope will proceed during the sessions formally. 

21 We have alco been considering in connection 



Court F* porters 



THF J\CK SAFOMO.N KF.PO.'iTlNG SLRVICt 
100 r.quitatle Bui! Ur.g 
Ba'lMMOrf 2. MariLnJ 



Leiini'cn V 6760 





21 




1 


with the election of delegates to the Constitutional 




2 


Convention and assembling of the Convention next year 




3 


the problem of advising and informing the delegates 


\ 


4 


on the constitutional issues involved in the Convention 




5 


and on the mass of material that is available for 




6 


study, including our report and v."ork book. It seemed 




7 


to us it V70uld be unfortunate if in accordance with 




8 


V7hat V7e have been talking about a Convention assembled 

o 




9 


in July for a day or so to elect a president so he could 




10 


start work on committees and each delegate was then 




11 


handed a bulky report of this Comraission and an 




12 


even bulkier v7ork book and told to go horns and 




13 


read it in preparation for a September meeting of the 




14 


Convention, without more. 




15 


Vie therefore, borrovjing a page from the 




16 


note book of the Legislature, thought it v7ould be 




17 


helpful to have a session perhaps of several days that 




18 


V70uld be a v7ork shop session for delegates, at V7hich 




19 


members of the Cornnission and the staff could present 




20 


to the nev7ly elected delegates the problems of constitu- 




21 


tional revision, could discuss the reports of the 




1 


THE J\CK SALOMON Kr.i'OiniNG SERVICK 

100 l'..iuilablr [iuilillng 

Court R,pc'ler3 B.ilimorf 2, Miryl.-nd Lctinglcn l-iUO 





22 



1 Commission, the supplementary material we would have 

2 available, and in general give the new delegates a 

3 better insight into the problems facing them, so that 

4 they v.x)uld then be able to tackle the tack of studying 

5 the reports and various other matters and extensive 

6 bibliography with a great deal more gusto and certainly 

7 with a better chance of getting something out of it. 

8 As you know, the Legislature recently 

9 installed a sort of school for new members of the 

10 Legislature. The Judiciary has adopted a similar 

11 system. VJe find now both on a national level and on 

12 a state level schools in effect for new Judges to 

13 acquaint them V7ith the problems of judging. 

14 What we are suggesting in effect is some- 

15 V7hat the same sort of procedure. 

16 We have tried out the idea on several 

17 people and the response has been one to encourage 

18 rather than discourage. The Governor thought, for 

19 instance, that the Legislature would be very interested 

20 in providing for this type of thing. This, of course, 

21 is one of the problems that we V7ill have to v^ork out 



Court Rtporten 



THK J\CK SALOMON RF.POUTINC SEKVICK 
100 Kquitablf Biiil.Iir.g 
Baltimurc 2, MaryhnJ 



LtMin[lon 9-6:tO 



23 



1 with the Corumittee on Convention Procedures. 

2 All of you note the absence of Governor 

3 Lane from tlie meeting this morning. I think this is 

4 the first meeting of this Conmission at which he has 

5 not been present or the second meeting. He vjas abroad 

6 at one meeting. His absence this morning is due to 

7 the sudden death of his only sister last V7eek on 

8 Wednesday or Thursday, He will be V7ith us at the 

9 next meeting. 

10 I have been asked to advise the Comnission 

11 informally of what you will receive formal notice of 

12 a little later. That is the Governor's desire to have 

13 a reception for members of the Commission and their 

14 wives and staff and their wives at the Government House 

15 in Annapolis on the evening of December 13. The 

16 Governor's secretary asked me if I could say whether 

17 that date would be entirely agreeable, I said that 

18 so far as I could determine, it V70uld be. This is 

19 really the only social function of the Commission and 

20 I am sure every member will V7ant to bo present. 

21 Is there any reason of vrhich anyone is 



Court Rrportftt 



THK ]\CK SAMIMON Ki.I'OiniNC SEnVlCK 

100 Iquil.lt.lr Il.lil,!i:ig 
Balli.iiorc 2. MarjhnJ 



Lrxinflon 9-67tiO 



24 



1 aware why December 13, which is a Tuesday, V70uld be 

2 an impossible date? 

3 MR, CASE: You mean individually or 

4 collectively? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I am asking both. Individually 

6 I would hope every raaraber of the CoiRnission could be 

7 there. 

8 MR. CASE: I can't be there. I have to be 

9 in Nev7 York that day. 

10 THE CHMRM.4N: Any others? The next thing 

11 that I want to mention is that I hope to be able to 

12 conclude the v7ork that we have scheduled for this 

13 meeting -- 
14r DR. JENKINS: Pardon me. Is this a finn 

15 date or tentative date? 

16 THE CHAIRR\N: This will be a firm date in 

17 ! the absence of any considerable number of people not 

18 being able to be there. 

19 DR. JENKINS: Do you have the time? 

20 TIE CHAIR.mN: I don't know. I suppose 

21 6 o'clock or thereabouts. I think it vjould be desirable 



Court Beportert 



THF. J\tK SMOMON Kf.ronTlNC SEHVICE 
100 llquil.ible BuU.iing 
Baltimore 2, MaiybnJ 



Lexinflor. 9-6TbO 



25 



1 for all of you to note the date in your calendars. 

2 I think we will be able to conclude the 

3 work scheduled for today's session by late afternoon so 

4 it will not be necessary to have an evening meeting. 

5 I think, however, it V7ill be necessary for us to have 

6 another meeting, V7hich I V7ould hope to be the final 

7 formal meeting, I would hope V7e could do it next 

8 Monday . 

9 MR. CASE: Next Monday? 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

11 MPv. CASE: VJeek from today? 

12 THE CH/iIRMAN: Yes. I would like at that 

13 time to arrange to have photographs taken of the 

14 entire Commission and the staff, a formal photograph. 

15 I have made the arrangements V7ith the photographers 

16 attached to the State Police to take the photographs 

17 at whatever time V7e are ready. VJhat is your pleasure 

18 as to a meeting? I V70uld contemplate that this could 

19 be a meeting in the afternoon that might perhaps run 

20 into the evenirg or perhaps only the photograph in the 

21 evening rather than morning or afternoon. But we could 



Co:irt Ktporters 



TIU, JACK SALOMON KKl'Orai.NC SERV'.CF. 
100 Eq-iitabU Buiiding 
Baltir.iurc 2, Maryland 



Lexiniloi 9-6.* 





26 


1 
1 


1 


do whichever V70uld suit most mambers best. This is, 




1 ^ 


of course, very short notice, I had hoped we wouldn*t 




3 


have to have another meeting, but we are under such 




4 


pressure to conclude our report and V7rap up all 




5 


details that I don't think we can put it beyond that 




6 


date. 




7 


MR. MILLER: Ifliere V7ould it be? 


• 


8 


THE GHAIRM.\N: Probably right here in this 




9 


building. Facilities are available here to have a 




10 


room large enough to take the picture. We V7ill probably 




11 


have to have t\«7o separate pictures, one of the 




12 


Commission, a separate one for the staff. I am afraid 




13 


one picture of the combined vrould have such a large 




14 


group the faces would be too small. This is a picture 




15 


V7hich I had hoped to be able to have available so that 




16 


each member could have one but also to include it 




17 


in our report. Is there anyone v7ho could not be present 




18 


at a meeting on next Monday? 




19 


MR, B/iRD: Could it be afternoon and 




20 


evening? I am asking. 




21 


MR, HOFF: I have to dr5.ve back from Nev7 




i. 


Tin: J\CK SAIOMON KF.rOK'l I.NC SFRVICF. 

100 T:quitablc Huildir.g 

Co^n Rvfcn.,, Baltiniorf 2. M.ryhn,! Lt,in,!o', V-tToO 





1 


27 




1 


York Monday n»rning. I could be here in the afternoon. 




2 


MRSo FREEDLA.NDER : I can't make it. 




3 


THE CHAIRMAN: Out corapletely for you? 




\ 


MRSo FREEDLANDER: Yes. 




5 


MR. CASE: I think, I don't want to get 




6 


into this now, but it seems to me a big area and the 




7 


frame of reference this Commission has to adopt is 




8 


unresolved. X have been doing V7hat I can to get it 




9 


resolved with Judge Adkins, as you well knov7. But he 




10 


is not here today, not here yet. I have specific 




11 


reference to the thing V7hich V7e got, our Committee 




12 


got into somewhat obliquely in the revenue picture, 




13 


that is, the place of the comptroller in the State 




14 


Government. 




I 15 

1 


I rather take it that the Consnission at 




16 


an early time suggested that or recommended in effect 




17 


th?.t the office be removed from the Constitution as 




18 


a constitutional office. I have some very grave second 




19 


doubts about that and second thoughts. My Committee, 




20 


I think, will probably not buy this recoii-uendation for 




21 


very cogent reasons vrhich I am not going into now. 







THt J\CK SM-OMON KF.POBTINC SERVICE 

100 r.'riiiabl« Iluil.!;r.g 

Court Rryont,, BaliiMort 2. MarjIanJ irrin,<o,i <)-t:tO 



28 



1 
2 
3 

4: 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 
18 

19 

20 

21 



Maybe you can explain this better, Mr. 
Chairman, because this is a question that I think is 
very important and one which the Adkins Corrmittce and 
mine ought to meet and try to get resolved before 
bringing back a report to the Commission. Certainly the 
way it stands now it is very inconclusive and very 
unsatisfactory. 

THE CHAIRM.\N: This is one of the major 
matters that I want to resolve at this next meeting. 
I was hoping there could be a joint meeting of the t\\'o 
Committees this week and present it next Monday. If 
that is too short a time, we will have to push the next 
meeting up because I do want to have that matter 
presented by the tv7o Committees and resolved finally 
by the Coirmission at the next meeting v/henever it is. 
Have you talked to Judge Adkins at all as to a possible 
date? 

MR. CASE: No, of course he V7asn't at the 
meeting the other day, as you know. I haven't been 
able to get him in Baltimore. I guess if I V7ent to 
Salisbury, I could get him. 



Court Rtportvn 



THE JACK S.MOMON KKPORTl.NG SERVICE 
100 r.ir.ntablc Kuiliing 
taltiniorr 2. M^ryljiiJ 



l«»ir.f'ci 9-iTtO 





29 






\ - 




1 


THE CHAIRMAN: What v7ould be the position 




2 


of the members as to having the meeting, say, on 




3 


Wednesday f next week instead of Monday? That is 




4 


ten days. 




5 


DR. BARD: I couldn't make it. Wednesday 




6 


1 

is a bad day. Monday is good. 




7 


MR. MILLER: X could not be here. 




8 


MR. MINDEL: I think the Bar Association is 




9 


having a ceremony for Judge Rhynhart who is retiring 




10 


on Wednesday, the 30th. I don't knov7 how many members 




11 


here want to attend but I have to be present there, 




12 


30th of November, 3 o'clock. 




' 13 


THE CIlAIRt-l^N: How about Thursday, the 




14 


first? 




15 


MR. MINDEL: All right. 




16 


MR. CASE: Hov7 about the following Monday, 




17 


December 5? 




18 


THE CILAIRmN: If we can't do any better. 




19 


we have to. I hate to put it off that long. 




20 


(Discussion off the record.) 




21 


THE CRAIRMAN: Is there any objection to 






THt J\CK SAIOMON RJ.POr.TI.NC smVlCK 

100 F.rMtaMt HiiiMing 

Court R,pcrtrrt Ballii.mrf 2, Mjrjiand Ltxint'on 9-6760 



30 



1 
2 

3 

4 

5 
6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 



Saturday, December 3? 

MR. GENTRY: VJould that be afternoon? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I \cDuld think it would be 
better to meet perhaps mid morning, say 10:30 or there- 
abouts, run through the afternoon, 

(Discussion off the record.) 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there anyone who can't 
be here Saturday, December 3? I think we will just have 
to schedule it then. 17ill you all make a note on your 
calendars, please. We will say about 10:30 in the 
morning to continue through the afternoon and we can't 
have any other meetings after that. I would like to 
ask that everyone be prepared to stay into Saturday 
evening if V7e have to in order to finish. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

THE CRMRmN: We will say Saturday, 
December 3, 10:30, through the afternoon and perhaps 
then into the even5,ng if it becomes necessary. We 
V7ill tiy to avoid that. 

We also have to have at that meeting the 
final report of the Committee on Judiciary vjhich is also 



Court Rfportt:rs 



THE J\CK SMO.MON KF.ror.TIXG SERVICE 
100 Kq.lil.itle KuiMirg 
Bal'imurr 2. Maryland 



Ltzinilon 9t't0 





31 




1 


a very, very important report and will require soma 




2 


discussion. Any other Conmittee reports which have 




3 


details to pick up V7ill have to be decided at that time. 




4 


Mlo MARTINEAU: One of the items we are 




5 


starting to consider in our Committee is the schedule. 




6 


I haven't heard any discussion from any of the other 




7 


Committees as to their proposals to be included in 




8 


the schedule of when V73 are going to V7i.nd up considering 




9 


this. I v7ould like infcnation on this. 




10 


THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to try to 




11 


discuss this somewhat before the day's session is 




12 


finished becavise this too will be a matter that we 




13 


will have to consider at the next and, I hope, final 




14 


meeting. That's a m.atter of the schedule to be attached 




15 


to the Constitution. One of the important things we 




16 


have to consider in connection V7ith that schedule is 




17 


the nature of it. We have been talking rather loosely 




18 


about a schedule which is subject to a change by the 




19 


Legislature. This will not be possible as to some 




20 


things that V73 have been thinking would go into the 




1 ^^ 


schedule. It may be that the schedule v7Quld be of two 






TML J^CK SAIO.MO.N KEPOH TING S^nKVICF. 

100 F..iuitablr Buil.ling 

Courl R.portert B.h;n:gre 2. MjrylanJ Utinfton 'l-troO 





32 



1 parts, one constitutional matters not subject to change 

2 by the Legislature but which are nevertheless of a 

3 not permanent character, and matters which are not 
4: only not permanent but should be subject to future 

5 modification by the Legislature, 

6 Dale, one of the things V7e talked about 

7 before you came in is the necessity of having another 

8 meeting of your Committee and the Consnittee on State 

9 Finance just as soon as possible because we must 

10 have a final report by that Coir^Tiittee by the next 

11 meeting which we have just talked about having on 

12 Saturday, December 3, which would be the last, 

13 It is also necessary to arrange to take 

14: some additional testimony by that Committee. Would you 

15 talk to Mr. Case without fail sometime today and sec 

16 if we can get a date set up for the Committee meeting? 

17 JUDGE ADKIKS: Yes, sir. 

le THE CHAIRMAN: /'I might suggest to both 

19 of you that in view of the lateness of the date, I 

20 have no doubt it is go5-ng to be impossible to get a 

21 date for the meeting at V7hich every member of both 



THE JACK SM.OMON RnPOUTINC StKVICK 

100 Kquilablf Buil.ling 

Court lieporfr, Baltimore 2, Maryland Ltjinfton 9-i:t.O 



33 



1 CorE.aittees can be present. I suggest to you that the 

2 importance of having a meeting is such that you 

3 schedule it even though you can't have full attendance. 

4 MRo BOND: I just polled all members of 

5 each subcorrmittee and V7e can meet after this adjourns 

6 today. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: You still have to take testi- 

8 mony of the State Treasurer, 

9 All right. If there are no other matters 

10 of general announcem.ent , we are ready to move ahead 

11 on consideration of the Seventh Report of the Committee 

12 on Political Subdivisions and Local Legislation. You 

13 should have before you now the Seventh Report of that 

14 Committee together v;ith the memorandum headed staff 

15 m.emorandum dated November 21, 1966. 

16 There is one m.atter I forgot to mention. 

17 I received a letter from Mr. Clarence Miles on November 

18 10 V7hich V7as the first date, as I understand it, that 

19 the doctors had permitted him to resume any normal 

20 activities. He has gone auay to Florida to recuperate- 

21 and expects to be back the first of December and has 



4. 



Court ftriiorlrri 



THE JACK SMOMON RKPOUTINC SF.KVICi: 
100 r.qullablf Duiliir-g 
ba!!ii::orr 2. Marylaii.l 



l.tjirtfron 9-6."60 



J 

I 



34 



1 said he V7ill participate in all further meetings of 

2 the Commission. Mr. Clagett. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I would like 

4 at the outset to adopt a form of approach and since 

5 we haven't had a chance to coordinate in that regard, 

6 prior to now, do you V7ant to follow the procedure that 

7 we have previously follo;v'ed, namely reading the entire 

8 article, then going back section by section? Or would 

9 you prefer that I merely point up areas of change and 

10 go on the assumption that the report has been read 

11 and the comment digested by the members of the Commission. 

12 THE CHAIRMf^N: I think in viev; of the 

13 re-arrangcment of the article, it v7ould be better to 

14 take a few minutes and read through the entire article, 

15 then come back and take it up section by section. 

16 MRc CLAGETT: Very well, sir. Mro Chairman, 

17 I am reading on Page 1 of the Seventh Report, Article 

18 XI, Section 11.01, Units of Local Governmento Subsection 

19 (a). For the purposes of this Constitution, Baltimore 

20 City shall be considered a county; "municipal corporation" 

21 shall mean an incorporated city, tovm or village, but 



Court Fvportrrt 



THE jack: Salomon rkportinc slkvicl 

ino Kquilafcif Ituil.Ung 
Baltinlarr 2, MaobnJ 



Lrsinilcn <)-6TtO 



35 



1 shall not include Baltimore City or any county. 

2 (b) The General Acsembly may provide by 

3 law for the creation, incorporation, changing, merging, 

4 dissolution and the alteration of boundaries of counties 

5 and multi-county civil divisions, including regional 

6 representative governments and intergovernmental 

7 authorities. 

8 (c) The General Assembly may create, merge, 

9 dissolve and alter the boundaries of any county only by 

10 a three-fifths vote of the membership of each house. 

11 Section 11.02 Regional Governments and 

12 Other Civil Divisions, 

13 (a) Multi-county regional representative 
14: governments and intergovernmental authorities may be 

15 established by the General Assembly, by concurrent 

16 action of the county legislative bodies, or by affirma- 

17 tive action of a m.ajority of the registered voters of 

18 a proposed region voting upon a petition submitted by 

19 the residents of the proposed region bearing the names 

20 of registered voters equal to five per cent of those 

21 voting for governor in the most recent gubernatorial 



Court Rfporteri 



llIK JACK S\TOMO.\ RF.I'OnXINC SERVICE 
100 i:q'iil.iLIf Hiiililing 
Baltin-.orr 2, MaryUnJ 



Lerin[>pt V t:nO 



36 



1 election. 

2 (b) Powers may be vested in a regional 

3 government either by the governing bodies of all countieG 

4 within or partly v;ithin a region relinquishing powers 

5 to it, by the General Asseiably enacting a lav? ^withdrawing 

6 specified powers from all counties v:ithin or partly 

7 V7ithin a region, or by the General Assembly delegating 

8 powers of the state to a region. The power to impose 

9 and collect revenues, to borrow money and to collect 

10 taxes nvay be vested in the regional governments by law, 

11 or by the consenting counties. 

12 (c) The General Assembly or other reprcsen- 

13 tative governments m^ay grant to intergovernmental 

14 authorities the power to impose and collect revenues, 

15 to borrov7 money and to collect taxes. 

16 Section 11.03. Powers of Counties. 

17 (a) A county may exercise any power, other 

18 than judicial power, or perform any function V7hich is 

19 not denied to it by this Constitution, by its charter 

20 or by lav7 V7hich in its terms and in its effects is 

21 applicable to all counties or to all cDJinties of its 



Ccurt Ri porter $ 



THE IKCK S\LoMO.N KI rOnTlNC SLKV'CF. 
100 K.|uilabl< IluilJirr 
Bjltinorr 2, MaoljriJ 



Lfiinirci ^i' 



37 



1 class, and vjhich has not been transferred to another 

2 civil division. 

3 (b) Classes of counties, based upon popula- 

4 tion as determined by the most recent United States 

5 Census or upon other criteria, may be provided by law 

6 with not more than five classes and not less than 

7 three counties in any one class. No more than one 

8 classification shall be in effect at any one time but 

9 the classification may be changed at any time, 

10 (c) The General Assembly may enact only 

11 public general lav7S which shall, in their terms and in 

12 their effects, apply without exception to all counties 

13 or to all counties in a class. No county shall be 

14 exempt from any public general law applicable to counties 

15 in its class. 

16 Section 11.04. Structure of County 

17 Governments . 

18 (a) The General Assembly shall provide by 

19 lav7 for methods and procedures by which the governing 

20 body or the voters of a non-charter county by petition 

21 may enact an instrument of government subject to 



Court Rtycrters 



the: IKCK SAIOMON RF.PORTl.NC SLRVICK 
Baltiiiiorf 2, MirybnJ 



l.eiinflon 9-<i7c:' 



38 



1 ratification by a majority vote of the voters of the 

2 county voting thereon. The General Assembly shall 

3 provide by law for an instrument of government for all 

4 non-charter counties existing on January 1 of the 

5 fourth year following the effective date of this 

6 Constitution. 

7 (b) Until such time as the county adopts 

8 a plan or the Genoral Assen^bly plan becomes effective, 

9 the exist3.ng county governments shall have those powers 

10 provided in the Constitution. 

11 (c) Any instrument of government of a 

12 county shall provide for its amendment by a majority 

13 vote of the voters of the county voting on any amendment 

14 submitted by the govera3.r>g body or by the pstition of 

15 the voters in accordance with its provisions. 

16 Section 11.05. Municipal Corporations. 

17 A county may provide by public local lav; 

18 for the creation, incorporation, changing, merging, 

19 dissolution and altering of boundaries of its municipal 

20 corporations and may delegate powers to them. No 

21 existing mun?-cip:il corporation n?.y be dissolved or be 



Court Ri^orltri 



TJIE J^CK S^m.MON RF.rOKTINC SEKVICK 
100 Eqiiloble Uliililr.g 
BaUi'Morc 2. Maryland 



Lrtin[lon l-trc 



39 



1 subject to the withdravjal of any existing powers vzithout 

2 either its consent or the consent of the General Asserably 

3 by law. 

^ Section 11.06. Intrastate Intergovernmental 

5 Agreement . 

6 Any county, other civil division or 

7 municipal corporation. may, except to the extent prohibitcc 

8 by law, agree V7ith the State or with any other county, 
^ civil division or m.unicipal corporation for the joint 

10 administration of any of their functions and pov7ers 

H and the sharing of costs thereof. 

1^ Section . 

13 The General Assembly shall provide for 

^^ the general funds of the State necessary costs, salaries 

15 and expenses incidental to the establishment and 

16 administration of all agencies, offices or positions 

17 created by it, except local boards of education, or 

18 election required by public general law. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's proceed through it 

20 section by section, concideration of the article. 

21 j.fp^, CIAGETTs VJithout repeating the preface 



TIIK J\CK SAIOMON RKfOHTINC ^Fl'.VICK 

100 Vquitable PjM.lir.? 

Court Krycr,.-,, i;.!,lmorf 2. M,r>!=nJ L„!r,f,cn 9 tTnO 



40 



1 or even synopslzing the preface, which you v^ill find 

2 beginning on Page "4, I think we can best proceed by 

3 directing our attention to Page 7 of the report. 

4 There you will find we take up Section 11.01 under 

5 caption Units of Local Government. 

6 Subsection (a) includes the recomtnendations 

7 of the Coranission that definition of municipal corpor- 

8 ation be given, namely, to mean an incorporated city, 

9 tov7p,or village. Of course, this excludes, as the 

10 Sixth Report Excluded, Baltimore City or any county. 

11 It provides further, of course, as the Sixth Report 

12 and the Commission approved that Baltimore City shall 

13 be considered a county. Therefore, we will have 24 

14 basic units constituting the counties. 

15 THE CHAIPvMAN: Any question about Subsection (c 

16 Coniment? Subsection (b) . 

17 Ma„ CLAGETX: Subsection (b) has one impor- 

18 tant change in that where the General Assembly is 

19 given the power to create, et cetera, and alter the 

20 boundaries of counties and civil divisions, V7e have 

21 restricted that povaer to multi-county civil divisions. 



/ • 



Court Riportvrt 



TllL JACK SMOMON BF.I'OrvTI.NC SERVICK 
100 Equitable lUiiMip.g 
Baltiniori- 2. MjrjlanJ 



LexinlUn «.6."6P 



. 


41 


1 


1 


It being the thinking of the CoiTiiiiittee 




2 


that V7ith respect to the use of the phrase civil 




3 


division some definition should be given to it in the 




4 


Constitution. We have, therefore, inserted the 




5 


v7ords multi-county to place the Legislature in the 




6 


field of dealing with civil divisions outside of the 




7 


state and civil divisions which extend beyond the 




8 


county lines . 




9 


This is in the interest of consistency 




10 


because V7ith the grant of broad home rule power to the 




11 


county and the control of the county over the 




12 


municipal corporations, it is felt that the county 




13 


government should take care of any authority or 




14 


control over civil divisions v/ithin its boundaries. 




15 


The General Assembly would take care of 




16 


those vjhich go beyond county lines. 




17 


The provision by the General Assembly to 




18 


create multi-county civil divisions includes the 




19 


regions and intergovernmental authorities and region 




20 


has been defined to the extent of providing for 




21 


representative governments in accordance with the 






TIIL ]\CK SMuMON HI.rOr.TI.NG StRVICK 

100 Ki|uital.lr n.iil.img 

Court n.porler, B.Ilin.orc 2. MotyUr.J Ltxinflon 9.6:M 





42 



1 
2 

3 
4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 



action of the Commission taken at the Brown Estate. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? Dr. Bard. 

DR. B.4RD: There are two questions. First 
do we need intergovernmental authorities since the 
authority in terms of intergovernmental authorities 
is there v/ithout expressing it specifically in the 
Constitution at this point. 

Then my second suggestion deals with 
v;hether by law might not be expanded to include both 
methods and procedures . 

THE CHMRmN: Mr. Clagett, do you want 
to comment on the first question? 

MR. CLAGETT: It has been the thinking of 
the Conmittea, and I think it V7as the action of the 
Commission, that not^^ithstanding the conflict in 
the two approaches, regional representative governm.2nt 
and intergovernmental authorities, we would provide for 
both in the Constitution and leave to the General 
Assembly to the degree not otherwise provided in the 
Constitution the advisability of utilizing one or the 
other of the tv7o alternative approaches. 



Court Htportert 



THE I \CK SAI U\10N KKPOKTI.NC SERVICE 
100 Equitable Baildir? 
B«!lir:'.orf 2. MirylanJ 



lexi.Tffon ^tTtO 



43 



1 THE CHAn^lAN: As I understood Dr. Br>rd*s 

2 question -- 

5 MR, CLAGETT: I believe Dr. Bard^ notuith- 

4 standing the fact it could be included V7ithout being 

5 mentioned, I think by mentioning we carry out the intent 

6 of members of the Committee and Conmission pointing it 

7 up specifically. 

8 DR. BARD: The only thing that troubles 

9 me about it is \7hat we V7ill seek to do after a v;hile 

10 is seek to eliminate proliferation of intergovernmental 

11 authorities as regional governments conie into being. 

12 If the Constitution encourages specifically at this 

13 point the development of intergovernmental authorities, 

14 V7e may find ourselves in the binding position. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr, Clagett, further conirnent? 

16 MR. CLAGETT: I think V7e have argued this 

17 before. I think that to comment beyond noting the 

18 repetition of a comment previously made we would be 

19 getting back into an area that I think we have already 

20 come through. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: As I remember it, this V7as 



Court Rt'porti-rs 



Tilt JKCK S\IOMO\ REPORTING SERVICK 
100 rii'iilablf Biul>!ir» 
Ea'.li'::orc 2, MarylanJ 



Lriinrlon 9-6700 



44 



1 discussed at great length at the last meeting. The 

2 feeling of the Committee at least was that while it 

3 was opposed to proliferation of intergovernmental 

4 authorities it did not want to take any firm position 

5 to prevent it or even discourage it in the constitution, 

6 is that correct? 

7 MR. CLAGETT: That is correct, and, 

8 therefore, since the coirment was rather extensive, I 

9 don't think it necessary to repeat that nov7. 

10 THE CRMRIl^N: Anything further? 

11 MRS. FREEDI^A.MDER : I think we took care 

12 of that to a great extent by providing multi-county 

13 civil divisions, any new area that would be created 
l^ V70uld of necessity have to be a multi-county one 

15 against the danger of proliferation. 

16 MR„ CLAGETT: I think that brings into 

17 focus to some extent the attempt on the part of the 

18 Committee to cure a fear that was raised by Mr. Sykes 

19 that through the U3e of the intergovernmental authority 

20 device the General Assembly could be back in the 

21 field of local legislation. 



Court Hii^orttft 



THF. IKCK SMCiMON KF.POP.TINC SEKVICK 
100 KquiuMf Huiidirg 
Blltiniort 2. MarjIjnJ 



Lttin(:on l-tTtiO 



i 



1 


45 




1 


In order to minimize that, the multi-county 




2 


civil division was one provided for in that it would 




3 


take the General Assembly out of the field of the 




4: 


boundaries of the county and place it only in the 




5 


multi-county and dealing with problems that extend 




6 


beyond county lines. 




7 


THE CEAIRmN: I take it that implicit in 




8 


that is the notion the Legislature could not create 




9 


either a regional government or intergovernmental 




10 


authority except on a multi-county basis but that the 




11 


county, any county, could create purely local inter- 




12 


governmental authorities within its boundary? 




13 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. 




14 


MR. CLAGETT: That is correct. Specifically 




15 


the CoRLTiittee considered the possibility that without 




16 


such a definition, one county could become a region. 




17 


It V7as to avoid that very possibility that V70 V7ent 




18 


to the definition of civil division as being multi- 




19 


county vrhen being dealt with by the General Assembly. 




20 


THE CHr\IRM;\N: But it is also intended. 




21 


is it, that a county could provide an authority to 






THE MCK SAIOMO.N RF.POKTINC SERVICE 

100 l.quilablf ll:i;!.!iis 

Court R.pc'Uf, Baltimore 2. M^nUnJ Lrxir.ilon 9.6.V(1 





1 



, 


46 




1 


operate betv7een two of its ovm municipalities or 




2 


between a municipality and county? 




5 


MR. CIAGETT: That is correct. I think 




4 


this is the appropriate place to mention that, direct- 




5 


ing attention to Section 11.06, where counties by 




6 


compact or agreement may create authorities in order 




7 


that — singularly I might add within the county. 




8 


municipal corporations could enter into compacts or 




9 

t 


agreements, in order to give the counties a degree of 




control over any action by civil divisions within its 




11 


boundaries, we made the broad prohibition one by lav; 




' 12 


rather than public general lav7. By law it is meant 




13 


that not only the Legislature but also the county 




14 


could restrict or control the compacts entered into 




15 


by civil divisions. 




16 


THE CHAIRMAN: Could you comerback - tO'the 




17 


second question that Dr, Bard asked v;hich, as I 




18 


understood it, vras v/hether you intended in the first 




19 


phrase of Subsection (b) to authorize the General 




20 


Assembly to provide by law not only for the creation 




21 


or change or so forth of iiii.il ti -county civil divisions 






TUL JACK S\!.0>!ON RF.PORI ING SERVICE 

100 Equitable BuiMirf 

Coi.rt RrpcUT, Biltii^-.orr 2. MarjUnJ Ltxinflcn V-iTtO 







47 




1 


but also to provide by la;/ procedures for the creation 




2 


of such. . 




3 


MRo ClAGETT: Yes, that is contemplated. 




'4 


We do not mean to restrict, to mere creation, but 




5 


to include the provision for structure although else- 




6 


where we go into giving other approaches insofar as 




7 


the determination of structure is concerned. But it 




8 


is not meant to be restrictive upon the General 




9 


Assembly. I think the language v.-ould make that clear. 




10 


I hope there is no confusion. 




11 


THE CRAIRM^N: That is what is intended 




12 


by the language used V7hich is what Dr. Bard's question 




13 


was, as I understand it. 




14 


MR. CLAGETT: This language includes both 




15 


the act of creation and act of providing, giving birth 




16 


and nurturing. 




17 


DR. BURDETTE: I think I kept up with this. 




18 


I have a couple questions. I gathered your question. 




19 


Mr. Chairman, vjhich is not answered, regarding inter- 




20 


governmental authority being multi-county cora2s from 




21 


the language multi-county civil divisions include. So 






TME JACK S\t.OMnN RF.fOKTINC SERVICE 

100 VqiiiuMt Buil.I.ng 

Cur, R.porlc, Bal.;.:.or. 2, M.rybnJ i.x.nf/on 9.6:60 





48 



1 that would mean including intergovernmental authorities. 

2 My first question is this. Does this multi- 

3 county mean that the representative of regional government 

4 and intergovernmental authorities must be in the 

5 totality of multi-counties or could it be, let us say, 

6 half of Baltimore County and all of Howard? 

7 THE CMIRKAN: I gather from the ConLmittee's 

8 report that it would be the latter. In other words, 

9 that multi-county means it must include some part at 

10 least of more than one county but it does not necessarily 

11 have to include all of any county that is included 

12 in part, is that correct? 

13 MR. CLAGETT: That is correct, 

14 DR. BUllDETTE: That would establish it 

15 for the record here but V70uld it be wise to be more 

16 precise in the language? 

17 THE CIiA.IRMA.N: It is definitely stated in 

18 the report. I don't recall whether there is 

19 provision in the language of any of the section or not. 

20 I don't believe there is. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: No, there isn't. 



Court Rtf/orte 



IHf, J^CK SAr.OMON RF.POKTINC SERVICK 
!00 i:qMii.iblf Il.nl.iir? 
BalliMorc 2, Mir)!.'nJ 



/.Mi/iffoi 9-6."(i0 



49 



1 MR, CASE: Mr. Chairman. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case. 

3 MR, CASE: Mr. Chairman, the thing that 

4 v7orries me about this provision is that I think it 

5 fails to reach V7hat may eventually turn out to be 

6 a very important division of local government. Perhaps 

7 I am not reading this properly and my fears are unjusti- 

8 fied. But as I read it, you have got three anim.als 

9 here, the county, the municipal corporation, V7hich V7ill 

10 be an incorporated town or city, and the so-called 

11 multi-county civil divisions. 

12 I suggest that a more likely type of 

13 local government will be a part of an existing county 

14 which may be incorporated or designated as a taxing 

15 district for a specific purpose. This is certainly the 

16 case today. 

17 For example, in Baltimore County, we have 

18 V7hat is knov7n as the metropolitan division or the 

19 metropolitan area, V7hich involves the delivery of water 

20 and sewerage utilities to the people in that area but 

21 it is a metes and bounds area specified in the county 



Court Rt porter I 



THE JACK SMOMON Kn'OIlTlNC SIRVICK 
100 Iquitallf Bciil-linf 
Baltiniort 2. MaryUnJ 



Lixirxfton 9-67tO 



50 



1 as such. Within that area the county can impose 

2 ad valorem taxes for the purpose of meeting the obliga- 

3 tions that are incurred to deliver those services vzhile 
4: outside the area it cannot. 

5 Taking off from that which V7as one of the 

6 first incorporated entities vjithin a county, vje have 

7 today in, I don't want to give the number, I would say 

8 better than half of the counti,es,V7hat vje call sanitary 

9 districts created under Article 43 of the Code, can 

10 be established by County Commissioners upon petition of 

11 the people involved in a given area. Those sanitary 

12 districts are set up again to deliver v/ater and sewer 

13 services to the people but they are all vjithin one 

14 county as of nou although they can be in one or more 

15 counties. 

16 j What I am suggesting is that the definition 

17 of civil division, if it means to exclude this kind of 

18 area located all in one county, is too limited. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: As I understand the report 

20 of the Committee, what they are saying in 11.01 (b) 

21 is that the General Assembly may not create such divisions 



Conn Rrpo'lrrj 



THE JACK SM-OMON REI'OtlTING SERVICE 
100 r.TjitablF Buil.Ung 
Baltiniore 2, MarylailJ 



teiinflo.T 9.6."60 



51 



1 as you talk about but that the counties may. 

2 MR. CASE: Does it say that? 

3 THE CHAIRmN: Section (b) deals only with 
4r what the General Assembly may provide for. A later 

5 section deals with the pov/ers of the counties. 

6 MR, RAXLE: The counties have plenary 

7 papers under a later section. 

8 DR. BARD: 11.06. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: The theory of the section, 

10 as I understand it, is that unless the Legislature by 

11 general law prohibits all counties from exercising such 

12 povzer, they would have it. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: I believe that V70uld be 

14 correct. I don't see anything here that would prohibit 

15 necessarily the — 

16 MR, CASE: If somebody does not deal with 

17 this from day to day, you better put in the Constitution, 

18 at least a definitional section, saying this can be 

19 done. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: 11.03 Subsection (a), that 

21 v7ould be more appropriate for further consideration along 



Court Rtporttri 



THi: JACK SALOMON KF.i'ORTINC SLKVICE 
100 Kqnitable nuil.hrg 
BaIt:ntor« 2, MarjlanJ 



Lttinifon 9 6. '60 



J 



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1 
2 

3 
4 

5 
6 

7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 



this line. 



the county? 



THE CHA.IRMAN: Where you define powers of 

MR. CIAGETT: Yes. 

MR, CASE: 11.06. 

MR. CLAGETT: 11.03, Page 12. 

MRS. FREEDLAlTOERs (a). 

MR. CASE: I have some corcnent about that 



too . 



MR. CLAGETT: I think that would include 
just what you are talking about. 

MR, CASE: Bear in mind, I say this as an 
aside, V7hen dealing V7ith these written documents, of tentimeo 
it is very important not to be too academic about 
it and to specify definitional concepts because if you 
don't, you get into a lot of trouble V7hsn you try to 
convince other people the Constitution permits so and 
so. -After all, a lot of people deal with these things 
for practical reasons who are not constitutional 
authorities. 

MRc CLAGETT: Very true. 



Court Ki^orrtrj 



T!!F; JiiCK SAI uMON KEPORTING JtllVICF. 
100 L'.v'iiil'lf Buil.lir.g 
Ba'tinore 2, MjryLiiiJ 



Lfiinfton VtTtjO 



53 



1 
2 

3 
4 

5 
6 
7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

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19 

20 

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THE CE'MRMAN: "Mr, Gentry. 

MR. GENTRY: I want to question whether 
the v7ord representative was descriptive enough to direct 
it to elected members of such a government. Is that 
what you are dri.ving at? 

MR. CIJ\GETT: This was inserted here and 
included in this reirriting at the direction of the 
Commission and, I think, the discussion at that time 
was that it V7ould give a definition and direction and 
v;ould include elective, encompass or mean elected 
representatives in order to get away from the idea of 
appointive authority and the destruction of representa- 
tive government or diminution of it, vjhatever the proper 
word. 

THE CFAIP^MAN: Dr. Burdette. 

DR. BURDETTE: My question is directly 
related to it. If I V7ere reading this entirely cold 
I v/ould be in trouble as to whether the V7ord regional 
representative is undoubtedly modifying government could 
not also be read to modify 5,ntergovernm£ntal authority. 

TlIE CHAIPJ4AN: V/hich to modify, tha v7hole 



Cot.rt Rtporlvrt 



Tilt. J\CK SMOMO.S RKPORTING 5ERVICK 

100 r(l.nlat.lr l)uiiai.:g 
Baiiiniorc 2, Mar)ljn,l 



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54 



phrase? Or the word -~ 

DR. BURDEl-TE: My question is, it is 

5 perfectly clear the words "regional representative" 

4 modify the noun "government." Do they also modify the 

5 noun "authority"? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: No, they do not and would 

I 

7 I a comma betv^een "governments" and "and" assist? 

i 

8 I If so, wouldnt it -- it is not intended that the inter- 

9 governmental authorities shall be defined as being 

10 representative. 

I 
I 

11 MR, HOFP': Put governmental authorities 

12 1 first and then representative regional governments. 

i 

15 I MR. CLAGETT: That sounds like a good 

14 suggestion. 

15 MR. MILLER: Suppose you transposed 

16 ' "including intergovernmental authorities and regional 

17 representative government." 

18 MR. CLAGETT: That would do it. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Except it may be putting the 

20 emphasis V7here you don't v:ant it. 

I 

21 MRo CLAGETT: X don't think V7e need v7orry 



Court Reporters 



THE JACK SALOMON REPORTING SERVICE 
100 Equilal.l- BuilJini 
Balliinore 2, Maryland 



Leringlor, <>-6:t>0 



i 



55 



1 about that. This will not cbjjnge that. It would 

2 certainly avoid any possible interpretation of inter- 

3 governmental authority as being representative. 

4 THE CHAIRR^N: Are you suggesting that the 

5 phrase"intergovernmental authorities"be moved up to 

6 follow the v7ord "including" and then you put "and" 

7 after authorities so that the concluding phrase v;ould 

8 read including intergovernmental authorities and 

9 regional representative governments, period, is that 

10 right? 

11 MR. CL/^GETT: Yes, sir. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any further question 

13 or comment with respect to subsection (b) ? If not, we 

14 move to Subsection (c) . 

15 DR. BURDETTE: May I ask one more question? 

16 Do lavzyers present feel for clarity some such v7ords 

17 as elective rather than representative is necessary 

18 for court interpretation? 

19 THE CI-IAIRMA.N: Does anybody want to comment? 

20 MR. GENTRY: I think the word representative 

21 j is not quite descriptive enough because you can have 



Court Rrpoflfrs 



THE J^CK SALOMON RfJ'OHTI.NC SERVICK 
100 Kquilablc Iliiii'lin? 
Bjlliniorr 2, MjrjlanJ 



Ltzinllon 9-6Tl>0 



\ 





56 




u_ 

1 


representative government without necessarily being 




2 


elected and yet this is intended to mean that the type 




3 


of government is one the members of which may only be 




4 


selected by election. 




5 


THE CHAIRmN: I think generally in this 




6 


context the term representative government means 




7 


elected representative government but I confess to some 




8 


apprehension that this may not be literally true. 




9 


MR. ClAGETT: I agree v^ith the apprehension 




10 


but I also point out this additional thought. That is, 




11 


that when V7e go into minute definition, we are also 




12 


restricting a course of action. Many of us strongly 




13 


feel that confidence should be placed in the General 




14 


Assembly and that would include means and tools to work 




^ 15 


with rather than strict definition which is confining 




16 


insofar as range or freedom of action or course of 




17 


action. 




18 


MR. GENTRY: Then you don't mean this to 




19 


intend the selection might only be by election? 




20 


MRo ClAGETT: We m.ean that but whether we 




21 


intend to go further and bind a later meeting — 






THL J\.CK SALOMON RFIFORTINC SERVICE 
100 Equiublr BuiiaSr? 
1 Covrl Rtporur, Baltimore 2. MaryUr.J U.inflo^ 9-6,-f.O 

li 





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57 


{ 


1 


MR. GENTRY: I don't think it is fair. 




2 


MR. CLAGE'il': I do not think in terms of 


' 


3 


representative being other than elective but 50 years 




4 


from nov7 that might be archaic thinking. 




5 


THE CHAIRMAN: I think the action of the 




6 


Commission at the last meeting \ms that the terra 




7 


representative be used to indicate an elected 




8 


representative. 




9 


MR. CLAGETT: That is what V7e mean by 




10 


this now. 




11 


MR. MILLER: My thoi.-ght would be that 




12 


representative v7ould be more flexible because it might. 




13 


if you put elective in there, you might have to have a 




14 


special election to create a board which might by its 




15 


nature be composed of the members of the City Council 




16 


of two, they are elected, but they V70uldn't be elected 




17 


for that specific purpose. I think they would still be 




18 


representative and it v7ould seem to me to be better to 




19 


leave it representative. 




20 


MRS. FREEDLA.NDER: It is my recollection 




21 


the stenographic records will show V7e spent quite a bit 






1 THE J\CK SA! ONiON RtrORTlNC SERVICE 
l| 100 t.iuitjble n.iIMir.g 
1 Court R.fcru,, E.!!in>ore 2, NrjryI.,nJ Ltxi^ttcn l-iU.O 







58 


• 


1 


of time on this very word last time. In the political 




2 


science journals the meaning of representative govern- 




3 


ment is other than what we now think of authorities 




4 


that are appointed or in vzhich the Council, City Councils 




5 


or County Councils, appoint representatives, to a body. 




6 

1 


multi-county body. So that the meaning is that it would 




7 


be an elective body elected from each of the contributing 




8 


counties. I think this has a meanin g in political 




9 


science also. We did talk about i it last time at great 




10 


length. 




11 


MRo SCANLAN: If we only had a meeting of 




12 


the real vzorld. 




13 


MR. CLAGETT: The comaient defines the 




14 


word "representative" as being the opposite of appointed. 




15 


THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Dr. Bard. 




16 


DR. lARD: I think it may have that 




17 


meaning in political science journals. Certainly in 




18 


the literature V7hich I have read dealing with the 




19 


Consuission report on intergovernmental relations it has 




20 


both meanings, especially as applied to intergovernmental 




21 


authorities. I believe that if V7e really mean elected, 






' THE J^CK S\!ri\ION REI'Or.TINC SERVICE 

; 100 tquilablf B.iiMir.g 
;l Ccur, R.pcu,, B.ltinorr 2, Maryl.nJ i«x,n«ron «-6:!>fi 

ii 





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1 the thing to do is say elected because here is V7here 

2 we don't mean elected in most cases. 

3 THE CHAIK-l^N: As I understand the report 

4 and the action taken a few moments ago, it is intended 

5 that the interogvernmental authorities need not 

6 necessarily be representative. That is, needs not 

7 necessarily have elected representatives but that the 

8 regional governments must be representative in that 

9 sense. 

10 DR. BARD: All right. 

11 THE CRAIRmN: I V70uld suggest that the 

12 staff can do a little research and if it vzould meet 

13 V7ith the approval of the Comjnission, retain the 

14 present phrase, regional representative government, 

15 unless as a result of the research, the staff thinks 

16 there is any substantial doubt, in which event v?e could 

17 ; report it back to the Conmission at the next meeting. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: Very V7ell. In subsection 

19 (c), you will recall there V7as extended discussion with 

20 respect to referendum and the equality of referendum 

21 approach for all segments affected by any merger or 



Court RtpOrtt:f» 



THE JACK SALOMON REPOKTINC SERVICE 
100 Eiiuitablc Bui!.!ing 
Eallimore 2, MjryUnJ 



Ltxin/torj 9-67o0 



I 

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1 


dissolution or alteration. It was the decision of the 




2 


Commission that referenda procedures be eliminated 




3 


because of their restriction or imbalance, and that 




4 


the extraordinary vote be the answer. We have, therefore, 




5 


provided for that, namely, that alteration or dissolu- 




6 


tion of the boundaries of any county shall be only by 




7 


a three-fifths vote of the membership of each House. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Question? Dr. Bard. 




9 


DR. BArX): I am still concerned about the 




10 


question of one segment of a county being involved. 




11 


I V70uld like to go back to the illustration that 




12 


was used at our last meeting. For example, suppose a 




13 


segment of Baltimore City, let's say Northeast or 




14 


Northwest Baltiiijore City, were to be splintered off and 




15 


joined to Baltimore County. The damage would take 




16 


place not only in the area concerned, let us say as 




17 


far as debate is applied, but to the city as a whole. 




18 


It v;ould be ray feeling we should add a sentence that 




19 


v7ould run somevzhat like this: 




20 


Any change of boundaries V7hich results in 




21 


taking a part of a county and transferring it to another 






THK JACK SALOMON REPORTING SERVICE 

100 Eqjilablr BuiHinf! 

Court R,por,e„ Ballinore 2, MiryUnJ l.xin^/o, 9-6:t0 





61 



1 existing or newly created county shall require a 

2 majority vote of the qualified voters in the affected 

3 counties, 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard, this matter was 

5 discussed at length and acted upon at the last meeting, 

6 the whole question of whether any kind of change in 

7 boundaries or moving of parts of the city or county 

8 to another. The suggestion that you mention was very 

9 closely akin to the one that Dr. Jenkins discussed at 

10 some length. Unless you would v/ant to move for recon- 

11 sideration of that question, I think that we shouldn*t 

12 debate it further this morning. 

13 DRo BARD: Might one move for it without 

14 any debate? 

15 THE CHAIRmN: YeSo 

16 DR»BARD: X would so move. 

17 MR, CASE: Second. 

18 THE CRAIRI'L^N: The question arises then 

19 V7ithout debate on the reconsideration of the principle 

20 involved in subjection (c) as to v;hether the authority 

21 of the General Assembly to create, merge, dissolve, and 



Court fiiportfri 



THt JACK SAIOMON RF.PORTl.NC SEPVICF. 

100 y.l'ii'jtle BnM iirg 
Ba!t:n-.urc 2, Mir>Ur.J 



Lexinglon «-6."f,0 



62 



1 alter the boundaries of a county should be subject in 

2 any way to referendum. Ready for the question? 

3 DR. BARD: May I clarify my motion? 

4 THE CHAIPx^IAN: Yes. 

5 DR. BARD: I think as far as creating, 

6 incorporating, consolidating, merging, and dissolving 

7 counties, the first sentence is all right. I would 

8 agree that the General Assembly by three-fifths vote 

9 of the members of each House v;ould have the privilege 

10 of bringing together counties per se. VJhat troubles me 

11 is sections of a county. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand that. 

13 MRo CLAGETT: I would like to clarify that. 

14 That is mandatory referendum because permissive referendum 

15 is implicit. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: The question arises on the 

17 motion to reconsider the previous action by vyhich the 

18 Comraission decided against any form of mandatory referenduiin 

19 V7ith respect to the power of the General Assembly to 

20 create, merge, dissolve, and alter the boundaries of 

21 any county. A vote in favor is a vote to reconsider this 



Court Btporttrt 



THE JACK SAlUMON RSPORTINC SERVICE 

100 tqiiltabl- Biiil img 
Baltiniort 2. Mar>Ur.J 



l.tJfinglo:\ 9 67t:0 



63 



1 question. A vote no., is a vote to not reconsider. 

2 All those in favor, that is in favor of reconsideration, 

3 please signify by show of hands. 

4 MR. BROOKS: Eight. 

5 THE CHAIRM:\N: Contrary. 

6 MR. BROOKS: Ten. 

7 THE CHAIRM.\N: Motion is lost eight to 

8 ten. Any further question as to Subsection (c)? I have 

9 a question. ,1 note that the subsection (c) pertains 

10 only to a county. Do I take from that that it is 

11 intended to require an extraordinary vote, a three- 

12 fifths vote, of a law to create ,raerge, dissolve, or alter 

13 the boundaries of a county but not to require such 

14 extraordinary vote with respect to any multi-county 

15 civil dj^visions? 

16 MR. CLAGETT: That is correct. Only a 

17 majority there. 

18 DR. BURUETTE: I wonder if it would be 

19 v;ise to say the General Assembly may by lav; create. 

20 The reason is that v;e must consider V7hether we want a 

21 j gubernatorial veto to be in the picture. 
THE-CHAJPvMAN-: — Ljwou ld repLly-fo3:L-tb.e 

THt J\CK SAIOMON REPORTING SERVICE 



Court Ft porter t 



100 Eqiiiublc Uuil.ling 
Bal'irMorr 2, MarylanJ 



Leiinflon 9 6. "60 





64 




1 


CoiiEiiittee that that is precisely v;hat they say in 




2 


Subsection (b) . I take it that Subsection (c) is 




3 


intended to refer back. But for sake of clarity, it 




4 


wouldn't hurt perhaps to put in the words by law. 




5 


DR. BURDETTE: Unless they mean othen^^ise. 




6 


I think it now means otherwise. 




7 


MR. CLAGETT: I think it reads much better. 




8 


I V70uld leave that as a matter of Corrimittee on Style 




9 


because the intent of the Coiraiittee has been expressed 




10 


by the Chairman. 




11 


THE CHAIRI'IAN: Let ma see if I can state 




12 


■ 
what the intent is. You intend subsection (b) to say 




13 


that a law creating merging, dissolving, and altering 




14 


the boundaries of any county must be adopted by three- 




15 


fifths vote of the members of each House, is that 




16 


correct? 




17 


m. CLAGETT: That is correct. 




18 


THE CHAIRIi^N: We will leave the exact 




19 


phraseology to the Committee. Did you understand that. 




20 


Dr. Burdctte? 




21 


DR. BURDETTE: Not really. 






1 






r Tlli: J\CK' SALOMON RKPORTINC SERVICE 

j 10(1 Ki]uitjble Kuil.iir.f 

j Court R.porler, Ballimor. 2, MjryUnd l»..n|fon 9.6:60 



65 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Subsection (c) is intended 
to mean that a law creating, merging, dissolving, and 
altering its boundaries of any counties must be passed 
by a three-fifths vote of the membership of each House, 

MR, SAYRE: When we use a three- fifths 
vote, does that assume that you are going to override 
a veto in advance and, therefore, it is not subject 
to veto? 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, if it is by law the 
law would be subject to veto. Thatvjould be an improper 
assumption. Any further question at all as to Section 
11.01? Section 11.02, Page 9. 

• MR. CLAGETT: It is in this area that I 
think V7e are moving into the area of the staff memorandum 
vzhich has been made available to us and I confess I 
have not been able to fully and completely digest all of 
its impact. 

But I point up here that V7ith respect to 
Subsection (a), the multi-county regional representative 
governments and intergovernmental authorities may be 
established in three ways, according to this writing. 



Court Rfporirrg 



THE JACK SAI'JMON RtPORTING.Sl R\ ICK 
100 rqtiitable Uuil.iirg 
Ba!'.li"orr 2, Mar>lar.J 



Lexingion 9-6.'60 



\ 



66 



1 By the General Assembly, by the concurrent action of 

2 the county legislative bodies, and the third alternative 

3 by affirmative action of a majority of the registered 
4r voters by petition, 

5 . I must further point up here that I find 

6 that this provision is one V7hich is breeding conflict. 

7 Because of that, we attempted to avoid that conflict by 

8 an alternative which is to be found at the tail end of 

9 the report and vrhich I did not read in the initial 

10 reading, but would nov; like to have you direct your 

11 attention to and you V7ill find it on Page 22. 

12 Before reading that, the conflict which 

13 I find here in 11.02 is one V7here in 11.01 (b) , found 

14 on Page 7, the General Assembly may by law create, and 

15 here we say that multi-county regional governments may 

16 be established by the General Assembly, I find that 

17 merely to be repetitious of what we have already said. 

18 I can't find any real distinction between creation and 

19 establish. 

20 Then we go further and V7e say by V7ay of 

21 j a second alternative, by concurrent action of the 



ivp hnd-»fi,q. Tf yon turn to Sect^con 11.06, 




THL J^CK SMOMON RKt'OrvIlNC SERVICK 
Baltii.iorc 2. MarjUnJ 



Lriinflcin 9-6."(>0 



i 



A 



67 



1 v/here we provide for intrastate intergovernmental agree- 

2 ments, and counties may compact or agree, the same thing 

3 can be accomplished there, so again we are being repetition 

4 of what is elsev/here provided for. 

5 Then with respect to the third alternative, 

6 namely, the petition approach, I suggest to you that 

7 here we see the conflict in that the petition approach 

8 could be followed and a regional government established. 

9 Then the concurrent action of the Legislative Council 

10 abolishes that, then the General Assembly comas along 

11 and it abolishes both. 

12 So t±iat we have an area where three parties 

13 can act vvithin the same area. It seems to me that 

14 that is what is meant by conflict or what would be 

15 tantamount to conflict. 

16 There is also a question here to be resolved 

17 by the Commission to clarify action taken by it at the 

18 Brovm Estate meeting. Because at that meeting it v;as 

19 debated at great length how to approach this matter of 

20 regional governments. It was in the notes v/hich I took 

21 at that time and in the notes of our reporter, John Howard, 



Court Rtyortvn 



THE J\CK SALOMON RF.rOKTlNG StRVICK 
100 Xquilalile BuiMing 
BaUiniore 2. Maryland 



Ltxinflon 9-6Tt>Q 



68 



1 that the action of the Commission vzas that the General 

2 Assembly and only the General Assembly had the initial 

3 or original power of creation. 

4 After it had created regions, then the 

5 structure or the implementation of the government for 

6 those regions could be the result of the three alterna- 

7 tives, namely, by further action of the General Assembly, 

8 by the concurrent action of the Legislative Council 

9 or by the petition process. 

10 As a matter of mechanics, when this 

11 analysis and appreciation of the section became 

12 apparent, it V7as too late to do anything about it 

13 because V7hen I contacted Mrs. VJiggins in the Executive 

14 Director's office, the material had already gone to 

15 printing and the only V7ay we could take care of it 

16 was by an addendum. So the addendum V7as added on. 

17 I Nov? let me direct your attention to that 

18 addendum found on Page 22. There you vzill find this 

19 language as a substitute for subsection (a) found on 

20 Page 9: 

21 Upon the creation by the General Assembly 



Court Fkportert 



THE JACK SAIOMO.N RF.rOKTI.NC StHVICK 

100 Kquiljble Diiil.iing 
Baltimorf 2. MarylanJ 



t»ri/ijfon <).6T60 



69 



1 of the boundaries of regions, representative governments 

2 for the regions may be established by the General 

3 Assembly or by concurrent action of the county legislative 

4 bodies or by affirmative action of a majority of the . 

5 registered voters of a proposed region voting upon a 

6 petition submitted by the residents of the proposed 

7 region bearing the names of registered voters equal to 

8 5 per cent of those voting for the Governor in the most 

9 recent gubernatorial election. 

10 So implicit in this is that the act of 

11 creation, of original creation, rests solely with the 

12 General Assembly and it is permissive. It is not manda- 

13 tory. It does not have to do so, but constitutional 

14 power to do so, if there is any question about it, is 

15 implicit. It is to be found here. 

16 By reason of the fact that the proceedings 

17 there at the Brown Estate V7ere so lengthy, the mechanical 

18 problem again of transcribing all of the deliberations 

19 V7as one v;hich affected all of us to some extent. It 

20 V7asn't until actually the transcript became available 

21 that the actions taken there could be reviex>7ed. 



Court Rryortvtt 



THK JACK SMOMON RKJ'ORTINC SERVICK 
100 Equitable Buillir; 
Bsltimore 2, MaryUnJ 



Lttiniton <)-6:tiO 



I 



70 



1 Our good and able Executive Director got 

2 the first shot at the transcript and felt that this 

3 alternative approach V7as inconsistent with action taken 

4 by the Commission at that time. He V7as unable to get 

5 hold of me on Friday, that is, this past Friday. For a 

6 matter of record, I v?as V7atching a very interesting 

7 football game between Oilman and McDonogh, with very 

8 satisfying results I might add, inso far as I V7as 

9 concerned . . 

10 MR, GENTRY: Far as your son was concerned, 

11 14R. CLAGETT: The son rose. When he did 

12 get hold of me on Saturday, we were able to get together, 

13 I asked to have available to me a copy of the transcript 

14 in order that X could determine which of us in our 

15 thinking had the sense of the Commission. So all day 

16 yesterday I read some 200 pages of transcript until I 

17 1 was blue in the face and I come up with the conclusion 

18 that I was right initially and that our good Director 

19 is mistaken insofar as his interpretation of the action 

20 i of the Conmission. 

21 I All of that is brought to your attention so 



Court Rt^^orlrrt 



THK J\CK SALOMON REPORTING SERVICE 
100 Equit.ibit lliiil ling 
Ealliniorr 2. Mjr>l<inJ 



Lexington 9-6:60 



i 



71 



1 that you can resolve the question once and for all when 

2 we finally get to it. Then there can be no doubt about 

3 it. 

4 In order that you may follow V7hat I have 

5 been able, I think, to boil down quite briefly, in 

6 the discussion at the Brovm Estate there came a time 

7 when the Commission voted upon the question of v^hether 

8 or not the creation of regional governments would be 

9 mandatory or permissive and voted that it should be 

10 permissive. 

11 Then the question arose whether the 

12 Constitution should provide for the number of regions 

13 V7hen the General Assembly acted. It was there decided 

14 that the Constitution would not provide for any specific 

15 number of regions. 

16 Then on Page 148 this discussion occurred 

17 which I think is a summary of many other pages of 

18 discussion. This was between the Chairman and Dr. Burdette. 

19 The Chairman stated that the vote that was taken vzas 

20 that the Legislature would first have to create a region. 

21 i Dr. Burdette agreed v/ith that by saying, exactly. The 



Court Hiporters 



THE JACK S\IOMON RF.rORTlNC SERVICK 
100 F.quiiable DuiKiing 
Biltimore 2, M3r>l'"iJ 



Ltxinflon 9-6Tt>0 



J 



' 


72 




1 


Chairman then said, and the question now is whether 




2 


the Legislature shall set up a framework of Government 




3 


or call into being by some other way. 




4 


Then there was some further discussion. 




5 


Then on Page 149 of the transcript, I am referring 




6 


to the transcript of the proceedings on Tuesday, October 




7 


25, 1966, the Chairman said, I take it the effect of 




8 


the previous vote is that the Legislature and only the 




9 


Legislature can define a region. Dr. Burdette agreed 




10 


this time by saying, yes. The Chairman then said, and 




11 


create the region? Dr. Burdette said, correct. The 




12 


Chairman: This does not mean regional government. 




13 


Dr. Burdette came back, as he formerly did, correct. The 




14 


Chairman then, V7e are now considering the next question. 




15 


V?e moved on into the next question. There we moved on 




16 


into the area of confusion. 




17 


1 Included in that part of the discussion 




18 


there was consideration that the local government 




19 


constitutionally had the pov7er to establish regional 




20 


authorities or it vras discussed there. That is. 




21 


authorities, I v;ant to underline that word. But they 

[ ._ : 






THF. JACK SALOMON REPORTING SERVICE 

100 Equitable I!iii!,!ing 

Courl R.pctr. Baltimore 2. Maryland Uxinfion 9.6700 





73 



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would not have the povjer to create any kind of regional 
government in the sense of basic government. I add 
that only by vzay of addendum. 

THE CHAXKM^.N: I wonder if I couldn*t cut 
across this and save time. I think it is obvious 
from your report as to the transcript that there 
was confusion on this subject at the last meeting. 
The only doubt might be at what point the confusion 
began . 

MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, if you let me 
finish, it will make it brief because it will get it 
off my chest anyizay. If \je move to the transcript on 
Page 167, there we took a vote and the question that 
was submitted for ^xte was whether or not regional 
representative government could be established in the 
three alternatives provided for in Section 11.02, 
Subsection (a) of our Seventh Report, as it appears 
on Page 9. 

There the vote of the Coirimission V7as, there 
vote 
is no question about that/being that regional representa- 
tive governments could be established in any one of the 



Ccurl Hrportcrt 



THE JACK SALOMON RErOHTINC SERVICE 
100 Equitable Buil.ling 
Baltimore 2, Mjo''">' 



Lexington 9-6Tl>0 



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three alternative ways. 

Then we moved on to Page 168. There the 
question came up, whether or not the vote as taken in 
relation to the votes previously taken still left 
open to the Legislature the power to change the regions 
around after the citizens had voted or after the 
concurrent action of the Legislative Councils. The 
Chairman then began to dig into the matter further 
and the transcript discussion and summary of that 
discussion appears on Page 169 of the transcript. The 
vote there, as I think I already said, V7as that the 
regional governments could be brought into being, not 
just the v7ord establish, but the question as presented 
was that the reg>Dnal governments could be brought into 
being by action of the local governments or of the 
citizens of the area involved. But on Page 170 of the 
transcript I think the confusion was clarified and V7as 
clarified by the Chairman in this language. I take it 
that the combination of the two votes means that the 
majority of the Commission feels that the Constitution 
should contain a provision authorizing the Legislature 



Court Rtporten 



THE JACK S\LOMON RF.PORTING SERVICE 
100 Equitallt BuiMirg 
Bjllimorf 2. MarylanJ 



Ltxinilon 9-6700 



i 





75 




1 


to create regions and regional governments but not 




2 


requiring it to do so. And the second vote means 




3 


that if the Legislature creates regions and regional 




^ 


governments, then the form of government for a region 




5 


may be as directed or approved by the participating 




6 


governments or by the people of the area involved. 




7 


Mr . Chairman, you then went on to say that 




8 


that meant something along the lines of referendum. 




9 


Mr, Sykes said I v.-as with you, Mr. Chairman, up to the 




10 


last point -~ and I am eliminating the last point in 




11 


this sort of summary approach because I think it gets 




12 


us off into the area of referendum again and not the 




13 


point we are dealing with. 




14 


Mr. Martineau said on Page 172, I think we 




; 15 


all agreed with you up until the last point. So on 




16 


173 I think the matter v/as put to rest when the 




17 


Chairman sa5-d, V7e did vote, I think, to the effect 




18 


that unless the Legislature has acted first to create 




19 


regions at least, that no local government or no local 




20 


group could together define a region and establish a 




21 


government for it, et cetera. 






THE J\CK SALOMON RF.POBTINC SERVICE 

100 Equilablt Buil.iirg 

Court R.forler. Baltimore 2, Maryland Lt>inilcn «-6.-Kj 





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I find that the matter resolved itself 
along the line of just what we said insofar as the 
addendum is concerned, namely, upon the creation by 
the General Assembly of the boundaries of regions, 
representative governments for the regions may be 
established by the General Aeembly or the other t\i70 
alternative approaches. 

Now, if we are going to follow the usual 
procedure insofar as the Comniission is concerned, Mr. 
Chairman, I think we have really got to reverse a 
position which was clarified although it is somewhat 
confusing. I would like to know your pleasure. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think in view of the 
confusion that perhaps it v7ould be better at this time 
to consider the question anew and in the absence of 
objection, I don't put this as a motion for reconsidera- 
tion, because I am not at all sure that it is a reconsid- 
eration, but in the absence of objection from anyone, I 
would rule that the question is open for discussion at 
this time. I think V7e will save time by following that 
procedure. 



Court Htportcn 



THE JACK SALOMON RF.POr.TlNC SERVICE 

100 EqiitiibU Buil.ling 
Bllliinurr 2, Mio''"'J 



Ltiinflon 9i't0 



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MR. CLAGETT: I agree. It is too important 
a question. 

THE CHAIRmN; There is no objection 
apparently. The first question,! take it, presented by 
your comraittee is the question of whether before a 
regional government can be created, either by * 
legislature, by county governments concerned, or by the 
people within t he region, the Committee recommends that 
the region must be established by the Legislature. That, 
therefore, there is no power outside of the Legislature 
to create a government for a region, until the Legisla- 
ture has defined the region. Am I correct that is the 
position of the Committee? 

MR. CLAGETT: I would like to make this 
statement by V7ay of clarification. That is, in the 
addendum, it is said that the thinking of the Committee 
is that the addendum language clarifies the Commission's 
intent . 

Actually as I have described the mechanics, 
the Comraittee never had a chance to meet and specifically 
resolve this question. Therefore, I want to m.ake it 



Court Rtporlfrt 



THL J\CK S\IOMON REPORTING SERViCt 
100 Equilatle BuM.lir? 
Eilliniore 2. MjrjljnJ 



Lexington 9-6TttO 



1 clear that any member of the Committee is completely 

2 free to approach this problem as he or she may see fit 

3 without obligation one way or another to any previous 

4 commitment. 

5 Therefore, I do find that in my analysis 

6 of the position and expression of position by members 

7 of the Committee the majority of the Committee V7hich 

8 have dealt V7ith these problems v.-ould be of the thinking 

9 as expressed in the addendum, 

10 THE CR4XRM\N: In order to get it before 

11 the Coiiniission, do you vjant to m3ke a motion on the 

12 question principally involved? 

13 MR. CLAGETT: I move in lieu of Section 

14 11.02, Subsection (a) as it appears on Page 9 that 

15 the alternative section 11.02 , Subsection (a) as it 

16 appears on Page 2 be adopted by the Commission, 

17 THE CHAIRMA.N: Let me suggest to you if 

18 I may that you change your language, instead of saying 

19 "be adopted, "say"be considered',' because X am sure that 

20 there are a number of questions about either form. 

21 MR, CLAGETT: I would accept that. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 




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MR. SAYRE: Second, 




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THE CR4IRMAN: Is there any discussion? 




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Mr. Sayre. 




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MR. SAYRE: There are two questions that 




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come to mind here. I just want to have them clarified 




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for my benefit. If the addendum alternative were 




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accepted, this means that you v<70uld prohibit local 




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initiative to create regional government unless the 




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General Assembly could agree to boundaries. Is that not 




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my understanding? 




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tion would be there. I think you are getting yourself 




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into a strai,t>" jacket without having a necessity for 




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it. 




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MR.. SAYRE: I read upon creation by the 




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General Assembly of boundaries. You can't have regional 




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representative government until you have those boundaries 




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pre-agreed upon by the General Assembly as I read it. 




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MR. CIAGETT: I think I have got to agree in 




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part with what you are saying but I think that you have 






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to go a little broader in your thinking. It seems to 
me that insofar as over-all concept is concerned, you 
have to have exclusive authority somewhere "insofar 
as the control of boundary lines is concerned. Heretofore 
it has always rested with the General Assembly. By 
this constitutional approach, we are trying to adhere 
to the General Assembly having that ultimate and initial 
original authority. 

MR, SAYRE: That raises my second question. 
If all powers not otherwise denied are the counties', 
you are here denying those counties the povjer you 
granted them in the other part of the Constitution. 

MR. CLAGETT: No, I don't think that follows 
because the counties have all pov7ers to deal with 
problems v;ithin the counties. They don't have powers 
to deal V7ith statewide problems or problems that go 
beyond the counties and create boundaries for 
other counties or areas. 

MR, SAYRE: Then it is your intention to 
prohibit one county from agreeing with another county 
as to an authority or representative government? 



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1 MRo CLA.GETT: Not with respect to an 

2 authority. Only with respect to the establishment of 

3 a basic form of government which is, as we defined it, 

4 a representative elective form of government. 

5 MR. SAYRE: I understand. Let's take 

6 Montgomery and Prince Georges, for example. You have 

7 two counties and in its entirety vjould be a boundary. 

8 Unless the General Assembly could agree that these t^zo 

9 counties constitute a regional boundary, they cannot 

10 act. 

11 MR, CLAGETT: VJisely so, I would think. 

12 I would hate, as I believe it elsewhere has been cornnented, 

13 Iv7 0uld hate to see a region composed of only ti.'o or 

14 only three counties. I think that the debate we had 

15 back at the Brown Estate clearly pointed up- one thing. 

16 The desirability of not having a proliferation of 

17 regional governments » That means that if you get into 

18 twelve or whatever number you might have, you are 

19 getting into a very serious area of confusion. The 

20 argument is a very good one that there should be some 

21 limitation to five or something less rather than more. 



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MR. SAYRE: I have another problem here. 
Just suppose somehow despite this we had a regional 
government composed of three, say Howard, Montgomery, 
and Prince Georges Counties. Suppose that this represen- 
tative regional government wanted to have an agreement 
with the District of Columbia and various jurisdictions 
in Virginia to have an intergovernmental authority. I 
don't see how that could be done if you have this addendum. 

MR. CLAGETT: Of course, you are now 
dealing V7ith the District of Columbia, you say, and you 
are transcending the bounds of the state and you may 
run afoul of the compact laws or may run into some 
Federal constitutional restriction. 

MR, SAYRE: X see the greatest need for 
intergovernmental authorities being across state lines. 

MR. CLAGETT: I do also. Isn't it true 
there is nothing in this construction that restricts 
it. VJe don't provide for it and therefore prod or 
suggest in that direction? 

THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me your last 
question, Mr. Sayre, is directed not so much to this 



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1 section as it is to the other section dealing V7ith 

2 intergovernmental authorities. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Right, but you did suggest one 

4 very important point directly related to what we are 

5 talking about. That seems to me to be this. If you 

6 permitted two counties to get together and decide upon 

7 a region and they did so, and then assuming that they 

8 went on and provided for the structure of that region, 

9 you then got a situation V7here it might be completely 

10 incompatible V7ith the interests of the 22 rem^aining 

11 counties that would then compose a region. If you created 

12 a regi-on over here, the remainder would constitute a 

13 region. So v.'hat you are doing is you are then permitting 

14 a very confusing state of affairs to be initiated, 

15 Rather than do that, it seems to me if the 

16 need and the time v7ould determine the need or the need 

17 would determine the time, vzhichever way you V7ant to 

18 look at it -- it seems to me that then the body V7hich 

19 has the ultimate authority of governmant V70uld be the 

20 General Assembly. The pressure then v7ould be so great ■ 

21 from these Wo covmties through their representatives 



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or so great from other sources that the fear or v7orry 
about the General Assembly not acting would be overcome. 
The General Assembly V70uld then be pushed into going 
ahead and creating regions. Then the flexibility 
V7e built into the structure of counties could be 
applicable insofar as the structure of government 
for those regions. 

If jthe General Assembly having created the 
regions didn't go further and provide the methods and 
procedures by v/hich the structure of government should 
be handled, then vjould come into play concurrent action 
of counties within a region or the petition procedure. 
It seems to me to make a much more orderly satisfactory 
approach to the whole problem. 

I want to say one other thing and then I 
will sit back and let the debate take care of itself. 
This is apropos of the opening remarks of the Chairman. 

As I have tried to view the work of this 
Committee objectively and as I have had the chance of 
contacting and getting the reaction of various persons 
in and about the county and elsewhere, this has included 



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coctail parties and every\i7here I have gone, I have 




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come to share the burden of fear of our whole year and 


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a half's effort being nothing more than what Mr. Case 


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characterized it at the outset, an interesting study of 




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government. That is V7here it v/ill lie. 




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I find very definitely with respect to this 




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provision of our Constitution that we are exposing 


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ourselves to a very, very strong public reaction. I 




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have used my o";7n thinking as a gauge to some extent 




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because, as the arguments pro and con have been made. 




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I have found that I am just not ready to accept a 




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regional form of government without at least giving a 




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fair experiment to the other new ;th5-ngs that have gone 




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into the creation of this article, the broad grant of- 




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powers to the counties, primary and basic purpose of 




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activating', the county and giving it a means of being 




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able to cope v;ith problems, provision for intergovernmental 




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authorities, the degree of flexibility that the General 




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Assembly v/ill have to take care of problems extending 




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beyond county lines, the intrastate intergovernmental 




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cooperation procedures that is met V7ith b re. Those are 






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1 things which reniain to soma extent untried. 

2 To lay all those aside and project ourselves 

3 into a regional government set up as we are standing 

4 on rostrums and trying to explain all these things 

5 to a group, and we talk about the matters I just mentioned, 

6 then if we immediately jump into this regional government, 

7 the one thing that will be the match setting the pile 

8 on fire is going to be this regional government thing. 

9 V7e are going to get a very, very strong reaction against 

10 it. 

11 I point that up not to say, not to provide 

12 for it as we have done here, but don't go so far that 

13 we begin to define and mandate it in a sense v/hich 

14 could cause the consequence V7hich I am touching upon 

15 and pointing out here. I think we are going to get 

16 acceptance of the home rule broad grant, I think we V7ill 

17 get acceptance of many other provisions. I am laying 

18 it on the line clearly and firmly as a V7arning, V7e are 

19 not going to get acceptance of regional government. 

20 Consequently, V7here it is unnecessary although ideologicall[/ 

21 and the ideological thinking backed up V7ith some practicality 



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and immediate problem, I feel that it would be a very 
unwise courseto push this thing on- beyond what we have done 
here and what v^ould be taken care of adequately by the 
addendum. Basically the argument is that the General 
Assembly should have ultimate authority to start this 
thing, then the structure, form, development of it, 
taken care of by the alternative approaches . 

THE CHAIRl'IAN: Mr. Scanlan. 

MR. SCANLAN: That was my question. I 
remember in the debate on this issue a number of persons, 
including the Chairman, made the point, validity of 
which 1 nov=7 concede, it vjould be unrealistic to conceive 
of the General Assembly creating regions without taking 
the next step and creating the representative government 
for that region. 

My question is this. Is it clear or unclear 
v;hether the General Assembly, having created regions or 
region and having established a representative government 
for that region or regions, could the people within the 
rec^ion alter that form of government under Section 11.02 
(a) or must they take and abide by the form of government 



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1 the General Asscrably,i.n establishing the region, gave 

2 them, 
.3 MR. CLAGETT: I think that question is implicit 

4 in both drafts of 11.02(a).. 

5 MR. SCANLAN; l^at is the answer? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: The answer is I would say that 

7 once a region has been established, and let's assume 

8 the General Assembly goes the next step and creates the 

9 structure for it, that there must be provided in that 

10 plan or instrument of government a pov7er to amend by 

11 the people of the region. Consequently the change of 

12 I that instrument of government would rest v;ith the people 

13 for whom and over whom it is applicable, 
I 

14 MR. SCANLAN: What you are saying is even 

15 1 though the Constitution doesn't specifically provide for 

16 i it, it v?ould be your hope that v^hen a representative 

i 

17 ! government v?as established initially by the General 

18 1 Assembly, in that establtshraont, v>7hatever the form or 

19 i structure, there v;ould be a provision for amending that 

jl 

20 j form of structure by people in the region. 

;i 

21 1 MR. CLAGETT: It is inconceivable to me that 



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it would not so provide, and even though, insofar as the 
instruments of governraent provide for this, our 
provision for the counties, we did see fit to specifically 
provide there for amendment by a majority vote under 
Section 11,04, Subsection (c) , where we are dealing with 
the structure of county governments, I think that is 
really an unnecessary provision. We have it in here. 
I would have no objection to going a little bit further 
if it became necessary and providing a similar pattern 
or setup for the regional governments. 

However, I fear again that v?e have already 
given it enough emphasis and if vie keep on adding to it, 
we are going to give it an overemphasis which then puts 
us into the area I was trying to say where I recognize 
a very real monster that could destroy the v7hole effort 
here. 

THE CHAIRI^IAN: Mr. Case. 

MR. CASE: Mr. Clagett, what useful or 
practical purpose is served by a multi-county regional 
representative government that is not served by the so- 
called multi-county intergovernnient authority and the 



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complete freTlom of counties or county and Baltimore 




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City to contract among themselves? In other words, 


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V7hat real good will flow to the people by this new 




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type of government which couldn't be obtained through 




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the authority. 




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MR. CLAGETT: I am not going to argue the 




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merits of that one because it is contrary to ray thinking. 




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MR, CASE: I am not asking for an argument. 




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MR, CLAGETT: I am only saying I am agreeing 

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with what your question implies. I think they are 




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two alternative approaches, I don't think we ever 




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tried the intergovernmental authority approach, I don't 




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think v;e know, we have seen warning signs from New 




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Jersey, from New York, others, V7here there has been a 


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proliferation of authorities and those authorities are 


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nonrepresentative, they are appointed, they are detracting 

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from v;hat we understand to be true representative 




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government. 




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I agree with that criticism. However, I think 


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the intergovernmental authority approach, as ws have 

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utilized it in this state, has been a good one. As I 






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pointed out earlier, there are only a very small 
number of intergovernmental authorities that have been 
brought into existence and only 28 of the total number 
are ones dealing with problems of government such as 
the Washington Sanitary Corcmission, Park and Planning 
Commission, Baltim.ore Port Authority, et cetera, I don't 
have the fear of intergovernmental authority that has 
been expressed here. I don't find that I am at all 
anxious to get into a proliferation of governments and 
consequently, I am not the one to argue the merits of 
that. 

MR. CASE: May I summarize your answer by 
saying that at least, as I see it, there is no useful 



purpose . 



MR. CLAGETT: No, I can't go that far. 
MR. CASE: What is the useful purpose you 



see? 



MR. CLAGETT: I am afraid of my own lack of 
wisdom. I am afraid that maybe this regional device is 
better than I think it is. Or could be a medium of 
taking care of problems vjhich V7e recognize to exist. 



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I am afraid to eliminate it, : i 

MR. CASE: I am not afraid to eliminate it 
if it doesn't serve any useful purpose. 

MR. a^AGETT; I would rather turn the ansv7er 
to that question over to some of the others that will 
give you the answer. 

MR. CASE: Who can answer it? 

THE CtLAIRIlAN: Mr. Scanlan. 

MRo SCANLAN: I have an amendment in part (a) 
v^hich indicates my concern about inability of people in 
the region to change the form of government once it is 
thrust upon them by the General Assembly, even though 
Mr. Clagett feels that probably would be taken care of 
by statute. Secondly, to accominodate Mr. Case's concern 
that maybe the future v;ill show that really these 
representative governments may be unnecessary, I would 
suggest the following amendment. In the third line of 
the addendum -" 

MR. CASE: I think Mr. Scanlan is out of order, 
Mr. Chairman -- 

THE CHAIRI'If\N: Motion before us is not to adopt 



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Section 11,02 (a) but merely to consider it instead of 
the other 11.02. I would like to attempt to ansv7er 
Mr. Case's question by summarizing briefly what I under- 
stand to be the distinction between the concept of 
regional government and the concept of an authority or 
a succession of authorities or proliferation of 
authorities to accomplish these various purposes. 

MR. CASE: I wish you would. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Loevy has come in. He 
can supplement what I have to comraent. I think generally 
speaking the idea of the authority is it is a body 
designated to exercise a particular function or group of 
functions that normally would be exercised by the 
government of a region. 

As, for instance, to provide sanitary sewers 
or water or a number of other things. 

The authority may perform one function and 
most commonly does perform one function or at most a 
series of t^>'o or throe very closely related functions 
such as sr.nitary sev;ers and water. The concept of 
regional government, on the other hand, is that it is 



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an agency of governraent that exercises multi-purpose 
functions of governraent of a particular region, not 
necessarily but perhaps including all of the governmental 
functions of a particular region. 

So that it is a much more comprehensive governing 
device. 

The reasons why it is thought that the regional 
government is better than the intergovernmental authority 
briefly are these. That when you establish a governmental 
authority of any kind to provide for a particular 
service or a particular function, you first off, quite 
often, pick the people who are exercising that function, 
the supervisory board, for their particular skill in 
furnishing that service. If you have a sanitary 
commission, you are thinking of people with particular 
skills in administering or supervising or providing for 
sanitary sewers. If you are thinking of transit, you 
are selecting a cocamission vjhich V7ill have particular 
skills in supervising the many problems connected v^ith 
a mass transit system. 

V/hereas, v/hen you are selecting a government. 



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i you are thinking broadly of persons who will exercise 

^ the sovereign right of the people to govern themselves 

15 or some part of it. You are thinking, therefore, of 

4- people with different qualities. 

5 ■ . If you had only one function that you were 

6 j concerned about in metropolitan government, whether it 

7 is transit or sewers or water or any one of the other 

8 ! problems that arise in connection with metropolitan 

9 areas, I don't think there would be much doubt but that 

10 a governmental authority v;ou!- d be the simplest and 

11 I probably the best means of solving that problem. The 

12 i difficulty comes about v;hen you have in connection with 

13 ' a region the necessity to provide for many more than one 

14 ! or two or three functions. This usually embodies the 

15 desirability, if indeed not the necessity, of providing 

16 I a government that has the power to tax in order to 

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19 ■ at leaot you usually think in terms of a representative 

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at the one before, or two before that, in insisting that 
if an authority or a government ril unit is to have the 
power to tax, it must be a representative body, that 
we should not have taxes imposed by other than represen- 
tative bodies. Generally speaking, the people v;ho have 
written most in this area advocate thai; the proposition 
that the ills and problems, the conditions v;hich must 
be met in providing for all of the problems that exist 
v?ith respect to a metropolitan area cannot be solved 
by any one authority or by a series of authorities, and 
that the only solution is to provide a governmental unit 
which can exercise all or v?batever of the powers of 
government over a region may be necessary to solve the 
problem. 

As X understood the previous actions of the 
Committee here, they amounted to this. That the Committee 
was unv;illing to go so far as to say that there should 

not be any longer any governmental authorities, any j 

I 
single purpose or limited purpose governm.ental authorities . | 

This is a position advocated by some, that you should j 

prohibit these authorities and permit only full governments! 



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The Committee was unwilling to go that far. 




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The Committee, on the other hand, was also 




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unwilling, as Mr. Clagett indicated he personally is 




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unwilling, to take the position that all the problems 




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can be solved by authorities and that there is no 




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necesGity for the regional government. So that the 




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Committee's view has been that the regional governments, 




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that ir , a government larger than the present county 




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governments, but a full government, ought to be permitted. 




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The question that has been the subject of so 




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much discussion is who should have the initiative in 




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creating such a region and such a regional government. 




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As I understood the position of the CoDmitteo heretofore. 




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it was that the Legislature, and only the Legislature, should 




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have the power to create a region for v^hich a government 




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could then be established either by the Legislature, by 




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the concurrent action of the county governments involved. 




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i or by the people within the region. But that neither of 




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those three instrumentalities could create a regional 




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governn^-Dnt until the Legislature had first created a 




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region by defining the boundaries of an area. 






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That's not a very expert explanation of the 
difference but it is my understanding. Dr. Loevy, could 
you add to that in answer to Mr. Case's question? ^ 
think you V7ere here v?hen he asked it. 

DR. LOEVY: I think you summed it up completely 
I have nothing to add to it, 

THE CHAIPJ>li\N: Mr. Brooks. 

MR. BROOKS: I don't balievs I can add very 
much. I think from the work the Committee has done, it 
has become clear, not only that there is already soir.e 
apprehension in certain areas of the state concerning 
the multiplicity of authorities that already exist — 
and I bslieve Dr. Burdette mentioned last time, ue can 
get him to establish again, he v.^as commenting on hov7 
many special authorities exist in Prince Georges. Was 
it 150 or 152 or 153? 

MR. CLAGETT: 155. 

MR, CASE: Bi-county authorities? 

MR. CLAGETT: No. 

MR. CAS>::: That's what v;e are talking about 
though . 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: Of which only twelve are exercis- 

2 ing governmental functions. The others are special 

3 drainage districts, or some singlepurpose, but they are 

4 farming districts or something of that kind. 

5 MR. CASE: They are not authorities. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: They are counted as authorities 

7 in the 155. 

8 MR. CASE: By whom? 

9 MR. BROOKS: The concern is whether these 

10 attempt to solve a problem only within the count y or 

11 whether thoy are bi-county and so forth that they are 

12 single purpose directed and that the need for coordination 

13 of these authorities is such that some kind of coordinating 

14 body is required rather than just letting each Commission 

15 or each authority go in its ovm direction. 

16 It iR this thought that has stimulated the 

17 concept that there needs to be some over-all government 

18 that is responsible for coordinating the functioning of 

19 all these authorities. And there has been expressed 

20 some interest already in the state in having some 

21 coordinating body with the responsibility of carrying 



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on the functions of a number of these which are now 
separate authorities under one umbrella, so to speak. 

These authorities which can have taxing 
authority, it is thought, should be also representative 
rather than appointed. 

For instance, it has been in the minutes on 
several occasions recently thr.t the authorities that 
already exist, which are multi-county, do not respond 
to anybody once thay are established. There is no v?ay 
to actually get them to operate necessarily. 

For this reason too, it is thought if these 
are in some v;ay representative, then there is someone 
to vjhom these people who have the responsibility of 
providing services on a basis or area greater than a 
single county would be responsible to. 

MR, C^SE; Mr, Chairman, 

TIE CHAIFMAN: Mr. Case. 

MR, CASE: If the argument is that the authority 
cannot perform the service, cannot service the needs of 
the people in a region v;here those needs are multiple, 
that, therefore, you have to go to this nev; type of 



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governm2nt, because there are many things that have to 
be done and just one authority can't do it, you don't 
want a proliferation of author id-ss, v^hy isn't the easy 
ansv^er to it to create a new county? 

THE CHAIRIIAN: Tradition, I suppose. You would 
have a tremendous obstacle, for instance, if you tried 
to create a new county or city composed of Baltimore 
City and Baltimore County and Anne Arundel County, 
Much more so than you v?oui d have if you created a 
regional government to e>:ercise a great many of the 
governmental functions in that same area, metropolitan 
functions . 

Theoretically, you could, of course, accomplish 
exactly the same purpose by simply enlarging the county 
to embrace the economic or other area involved. 

MR. CASS: So that the multi-county regional 
representative government really is a pragmatic or 
practical approach to V7hat you are trying to reach. 

THE CKMRI'IAN: Yes, because you might have 
this, for instance. You might take the Baltimore City 
area, you night have the people perfectly willing to 



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create a regional government to provide for transit and 
sewer and sanitary and storm sev7er and V7ater and public 
health and such things but be unwilling to merge the 
judiciary of the city and the tv;o counties. 

MR. CASE: Wouldn't make any difference. 
It is all state under our proposal. Would make no 
difference, 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, it would, because of the 
provisions you should have county residency requirements 
in the counties, et cetera. 

MR. CLAGETT: What you are saying there, Mr. 
Chairman, is it is possible under a regional form of 
government to have less than a full=fledged government. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, no doubt about it. 

DR. EARD: Right. 

MR. BROOKS: On the other hand, it might 
be pointed out from the outset the Committee V7anted to 
permit maximum flexibility in alternatives and the one 
Mr. Case m.entions is one of those they attempted to 
improve, one which is the means for changing the county 
lines, so that if it is feasible to merge counties v;hore 



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it is desirable to do so, politically perhaps it is 
more possible than it V7as under the old Constitution. 
This approach was and is one of the ones being suggested 
here. That is one of three approaches envisioned by 
the Committee. 

The other, in addition to the regional govern- 
ment, is a multi-purpose authority. The Comniission, at 
this point, indicated a desire to leave that alternative 
only. There are three different, entirely different 
approaches to the same kind of problems permitted in this 
draft. 

MR. CASE: Is it necessary to have all three? 

MR. BROOKS: It is maximum flexibility which 
is the principle the Coiomittee wanted to endorse. 

MR. CASE: V/hy not say they can do anything 
they want to about anything? That gives them maximum 
flexibility? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard. 

DR. BARD: Our Constitution should sit for a 
long period of tirns. It has bccoma evident these are 
records being used by various governments on this 



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1 continent and elsewhere. That they are avenues for 

2 coming to decisions, V7here you have cases like Dade 

3 County, Florida, Toronto, this particular continent, 

4 London, other situations, we aiight point to, in regard 

5 to the possibility of the flexibility we talk about, I 

6 don't think vie should write a Constitution that would limit 

7 us to just the major avenues that are being used at the 

8 moment. I do think that herein we have multiple approaches 

9 MR. CASE: VJe are not vjriting a Constitution. 

10 We are trying to make meaningful suggestions. 

11 THE CHAIB>1AN: Any further discussion? 

12 I JUDGE ADKINS: A question that I'm sure is 

13 clear in a good many minds but not in mine. In event 

14 a regional government is established, in the event it is 

15 given v7ho.t amounts to complete governmental powers 

16 within the area, docs that then constitute a dissolution 
I 

17 I of the existing governm.ental bodies within the area? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: No. 

19 JUDGE ADKINS: Or if not, how do you reconcile 

20 I the conflicts that are inevitably going to arise between 

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body if you do not make thern subject to or creatures of 
the existing, the nev^ly created regional government, 

MR. CLAGETT: That carries you naturally into 
Subsection (b) of Section 11.02, an awareness of that 
very problem moved me along to provide for that, the 
setting up of the whole of the regional provision in a 
separate section. 

In Subsection (b) we say that in order to 
resolve this conflict, the powers to be given to this 
regional government shall be either by the consent of 
the counties within the regional government relinguished 
to it -- if they relinguish power, there is no conflict • 
or by the General Assembly delegating of its own power 
where it is not relinguished. I think the answer is 
in the method by v.^hich we have provided powers shall 
be vested -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: There is a third one that is 
General Assembly by general law '.withdrawing power from 
the county leaving it with the regions. 

MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 

MR. CASE: Just to illustrate V7hat Mr. Adkins 



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is talking about, giving all due respect to the large 
degree of flexibility we are reaching for here, in Prince 
Georges County it would be entirely possible to have 
four separate governments imposing four separate sets 
of taxes, having four different kinds of bond issues, 
all in the same town of Kyattsville. You would have 
the municipality which is preserved under this. All of 
its powers. Powers to levy municipal taxes and 
impose and raise revenues and capital funds through bond 
issues. You uould have Prince Georges County which can 
do the same thing. You would have this regional govern- 
ment v?hich could include the same thing. You v.'ould have 
the State of Maryland v;hich could do the same thing, 

MR, CTJ^GETT: The only break on this would be 
by the addendum approach which is the regions must be 
determined by the General Assembly. 

MR. CASE: Yes, but once determined, it v;ould 

be a logical area to put Kyattsville with Silver Spring. 

MR. CLAGETT : That is the matter of proliferation^^. 

whether 
MR. CASE: If it isn't, I don't know/ it is. 

THE CHAIPxI^IAN: The answer is if a regional 



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goveraraent is created within any given area in a region 
which is also in an incorporated city, a municipality, 
it is possible to have action by four governmental 
units. In some states it is possible to have action 
by even more than four governmental units. At the 
present it is possible to have action by three. 

MR. CASE: Is this good? 

THE CHAIRI'IAN: It seems to me it is good or 
could be good and it comes back to the basic question 
that we have got to consider and make a recommendation 
about. That is what is the best wry of solving a problem 
that exists vjhether we v.'ant to face up to it or not 
with respect to every metropolitan region. There isn't 
any doubt about the problem existing. There isn't any 
doubt that the problem cannot be solved solely by the 
independent action of the existing governments vjhether 
they are county or city governments. They have to be 
solved. Steps are being taken to solve them by some other \ 
means . 

The question really is whether you are going 
to say that the means shall be only an intergovernmental 



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authority of some sort v^hich is to the extent that it 
controls sev;ers or whatnot a fourth level of action 

3 within any given area, or are you going to say that if 

4: in a metropolitan area which embodies more than one 

5 county there are more than one county there are more 

6 than one problem or function is'hich must be resolved 

7 on a multi-county basis are you going to do it by a 

8 series of authorities or are you going to do it by one 

9 comprehensive authority or governmsntal unit? It seems 

10 to me that is really the only question at issue here.. 

11 I personally would favor the resolution of 

12 that question by one. I would much rather see one 

13 governmental authority for the Baltimore Metropolitan 

14 region exercising whatever multi-county functions are 

15 necessary to be exercised by one authority than to see 

16 a number of them. But whether that is the proper approach 

17 or not, I vjould be very chagrined to see us take any 

18 ! action which would in any V7ay prevent the Legislature 

19 from adopting that course. It seems to me that V7e ought 

20 to say that we ought to point the way and say that a 

21 method of accomplishing this purpose is by a regional 



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government, a method is by intergovernment authority. 
We don't have the vjisdom to decide today for all time 
in the future in the Baltimore area and Washington area, 

4 which may and probably V7ill some day be one area, which 

5 is the best method. We leave that to the Legislature. 

6 V7e again have the further question as to 

7 whether we want to leave it solely to the Legislature or 

8 whether the people vjant to leave it solely to the Legisla- 

9 ture or v;hether they want to say that if the Legislature 

10 does not take the initiative, the county governments 

11 involved or the people can take the initiative. I 

12 personally v;ould also favor that approach. But I see the 

13 practicality of insisting that the various counties, 

14 either the county governments, or the people v?ithin a 

15 county should not have the power to chop up the state in 

16 V7hatever regions seem to them best at the moment, 

17 On purely practical grounds, I v;ould therefore 

18 favor the notion advanced by the Committee that the 

19 region be defined by the Legislature simply because I 

20 don't sec hov; you can leave to the people scattered through 

21 out the state the creating of the boundaries of governmenta 



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regions. But I would also feel that once the region 
is established, there ought to be machinery in the 
Constitution by v?hich either the Legislature or county 
governments or the people could provide the government 
for that region, Mr, Case, 

MR. CASE: Mr, Chairman, let me just close 
out my part of this because I am really seeking answers 
here, not trying to provide theme 

One of the things I have difficulty in follow- 
ing your approach is when you cay you v7ould rather see 
one regional government than a multiple authority 
approach, the difficulty is that if you have one 
multiple government, they are going to have to have 
groups to handle these various things . They are goingto 
have to have, if it is to be public safety, they have 
to have a police board or police commissioner. If there 
is going to be water or sewer, they will have to have 
people to do that. If it is to bo trash collection, people 
to do that. There will be a multiplicity of agencies 
which are going to bo handling these governmental 
functions. You can't say you got one government and there- 



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fore it is all going to be taken care of as a unit. It 
is going to be fractionalized just as sure as authorities 
are. 

Leaving that aside, I think that is a weakness 
in your position, leaving that to one side, I can say 
this much from personal experience in vjorking V7ith 
government agencies throughout this state and discussing 
with people who are knowledgeable on this subject in 
New York and elsehwere about the credit rating counties 
receive and their ability to borrow funds, vis-a-vis this 
proliferation of governmental authorities. This doesn't 
c ome out of any text book or from any philosophical thinV:ing 
about these subjects but is true practicality. It is 
this. The more overlapping governmental units that you 
have in any given area, the less its credit standing 
will be in the eyes of people who have to lend money 
to those areas. 

I think it is fair to say that it was for this 
very reason that Prince Georges County and Montgomery 
County lost their preferential rating as far as their 
borrovjing capacity was concerned in the early fifties. 



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I might add only by great effort was it restored to 






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both those counties. 






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I have heard the experts on this subject say^ 






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it so often, that I am genuinely concerned about the 






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don't have this, people outside of the state look upon 




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have this proliferation and multiplicity, I think, look 






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upon it as bad. 






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me it is a very important concern. But I think that it 






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ought to be taken into consideration. 






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bility in the Constitution. I say that if this is a 






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matter of sufficient concern, then another approach 




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would be to prohibit rather than foster something which 




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is going to hurt our counties and our municipalities 






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and ultirantely our state itself. So there is .the flexible 




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approach, there is an alternative to that. 




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My fourth point is in vievj of the tremendous 
>controversy that this matter is going to engender, 
and because there are very genuine concerns about it, " 
I am wondering if this isn't an area where the Commission 
might indeed suggest alternative approaches and point 
out the pros and cons of each without attempting to be 
definitive as to either but to point the way to the 
Commission because I again repeat, Hal Clagett refreshed 
my mind about this, 1 again repeat that I think the 
greatest mistake this Ccminiscion can make is serve up 
to the convention a take it or leave it document. 
If you do this, the resentments are going to very heavy. 
They are heavy already. I have been around the state 
aid I know V7hat people are saying. It seems to me that 
this might be the perfect example of a place where vje 
can point out in our report here are a number of 
alternatives. Here are the pros and cons of each of 
them. VJe made this study and this is what we are doing. 
This is in my judgment, ladies and gentlemen, a real servic^ 
group can perform. 

THE CHAIRMAN: We are a little past the hour 



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of adjournment. Let's adjourn now for lunch and if V7e 




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possibly can get back by 2 o'clock. 


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(The Commission adjourned at 12:55 p.m. for 




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lunch to reconvene at 2 o'clock.) 

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CONSTITUTIONAL COiWENTION COMMISSION 



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6 

7 AFTERI^OON SESSION 

^^ovembcr 21, 1966 - 2:00 p.m. 

8 University of Maryland Law School, Baltimore, Maryland 

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14 Appearances as heretofore noted. 

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Reported by: 
21 A. A. Castiglione 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: May we resume? The question be- 

2 fore you is on the motion that Section 11.02 (a), alternate 

3 foriTi, on Page 22 of the Report, be considered by the 

4 Commission instead of Section 11.02 (a), as it is presented 

5 on Page 9. Let me make this statement in the interest, 

6 perhaps, of saving time, because I think it's obvious that 

7 unless we m.ove fon'7ard much more rapidly than we were able 

8 to this morning, we will have to have a session this 

9 evening. 

10 1 think the discussion this m^orning indicated 

11 rather clearly that there isn't so much a division am.ong th 

12 Commission as to what pov7ers should ultimately be in the 

13 Constitution as it is how best to express these in whatever 

14 report V7e present to the people and to the Legislature. I 

15 think that there is general agreement on the notion that 

16 in this area,particularly , it is of even greater importance, 

17 perhaps, that the report accompanying the drafts of the 

18 Constitutional provisions indicate the nature of the prob- 

19 lems , the uncertainty as to the best possible solution and 

20 the number of solutions that are possible. 

21 Also, in connection with the particular sections 



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1 that we are now dealing with, I think all of us v7ould agree 

2 vjith the principle that the alternate forms should be pre- 

3 sented in the report. The problem here is that in effect 

4r the alternate forms vjould be presented by the discussion in 

5 the report rather than in the precise language. In other 

6 words, the difference in approach is not a vast difference 

7 in drafting. Very slight changes in the section ultimately 

8 adopted \;ould determine the difference in approach, as, for 

9 instance, the question of v/hether the Legislature and only 

10 the Legislature can create regions and so forth. I think 

11 all of us are in accord that it is very important that the 

12 Constitution contain at least the authorization of power of 

13 the Legislature to solve the problems of m.etropolitan areas 

14 with whatever means could best accomplish that purpose. 

15 One other thing I wanted to comanent on. I have 

16 very definitely the feeling from discussion with a number 

17 of the members that there are problems with reference to 

18 the precise language of this ^'ection, much more so than V7it1: 

19 other sections. Many of these problems are more stylistic 

20 rather than substantive. With that in mind, I would suggest 

21 that, in considering the motion now before you, you considei 



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1 it in that context. It is not a vote to approve the form 

2 of 11.02(a) alternate, on Page 22. It is merely that, for 

3 purposes of further discussion this afternoon, we concen- 

4 trate on that section as a point of departure rather than 

5 11.02(a), on Page 9. 

6 Now, is there any further discussion of the 

7 motion before you, which is that we consider Section 11.02 
9 (a) as printed on Page 22, instead of as printed on Page 9. 
9 Mr. Sayre? 

10 MR. SAYRE: I would like to express opposition 

11 to the alternative section 11.02 in the addendum. The way 

12 I interpret this provision is a veto on local initiative 

13 and I would favor the way it stands now in the body of our 

14 text. There are several points here that I don't think hav^ 

I 

15 been brought out and one is the matter of political feasi- 

16 bility. 

17 This is bandied around without reference to what 

18 already exists or what could develop by alternative methods , 

19 if you consider the alternatives. The body of the text 

20 provides, I believe, the best political feasible approach 

21 ! which has all flexibility and alternatives that you might 



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wish to select. It enables you to have representative 




2 


government where you are going to be taxed. 




3 


Also, one point that I think is overlooked is 




4 


that in regard to a taxing unit, if you have a government 




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that can coordinate one function with another function, and 




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this is very important, coordinate, then you can make sense 




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out of all the functions that this government would handle. 




8 


For example, water lines would not be set out 




9 


without some pre-zoning. There would be coordination be- 




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tween zoning and water and sewer lines. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre, let me break in on you 




12 


to make this statement, as to what I understand to be the 




13 


difference between the two sections and the only question 




14 


before us, now. 




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MR. SAYRE: All right. 




16 


THE CHAIRMAN: And to clarify it, I would so 




17 


rule, the difference between the two sections is that under 




18 


Section (a), on Page 9, creation of a regional government 




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and creation of a region may be by anyone of the three 




20 


methods suggested, by the Legislature, by concurrent action 




21 


of the county governments or by the people within the 






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1 j region. Under the alternate form on Page 22, creation of 

2 j the region can be accomplished only by the Legislature aftej: 
2 the region is established. Creation of the government for 

4 i the region may be in any one of the three ways. 

5 Neither section resolves the problem of who may 
5 change the government of a region subsequent. So, that 

7 would be open to discussion, no matter which one of the 

8 two alternates is adopted. 

9 MR. SAYRE: All right. To cut this short, then, 

10 in the addendum you are establishing a potential veto for 

11 any type of all the alternative approaches that I think are 

12 politically feasible, by virtue that the General Assembly 

13 has to initiate boundaries in the first place. If our 

14 body of the text is good theory, then it's good in practice, 

15 or else the theory is no good and I think we have to get 
15 back here to what really constitutes good theory. 

17 Also, I think we have to have the ability to 

18 adapt. We've got that ability in the body of the text. 

19 I would rest on that. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander. 

i 

21 I MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, since Mr. 



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1 Clagett, the Chairman of the CoriTmittee, has freed the 

2 members, of the Committee to speak, freed them so graciously 
5 at the beginning of his presentation, I would like to speak 

4 against 11.02(a). It's precisely for the reasons he had 

5 cited at the last meeting and this meeting. 

6 The grant of home rule to the counties, 

7 allov7ing the maximum flexibility, that I feel that the 

8 original Section 11.02 allows that, because it allows 

9 the alternatives from beginning to end, creation as vjell as 

10 implementation, and I think that this is important for this 

11 particular Constitution, that we allow this flexibility, 

12 that V7e really mean V7hat V7e say when we say home rule for 

13 the counties, because these are new concepts, concepts that 

14 this Constitution cannot ignore and, therefore, I would 

15 urge that we keep the original 11.02, as agreed by the Com- 

16 mittee. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. 

18 Brooks? 

19 MR. BROOKS: Just two points. One, as mentioned- 

20 in the staff memo that v;as distributed, I call your atton- 

21 tion particularly to four questions on Page 4, and those 



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1 are primarily Questions 2, 3 and 4. I think the real ques- 

2 tion is should the General Assembly have a power which it 

3 did not have, say nothing in the Constitution at the 

4 present time about the power of local government to create 

5 intergovernmental agreements or to create any kind of 

6 regional government. 

7 At the present time, as most of you are aware, 

8 the counties can do this without any authorization, under 

9 the Constitution. The Committee sometime ago decided that 

10 it would be good to encourage this by having a specific 

11 section encouraging and so proposed Section 11.06, which 

12 would recognize this authority. A provision such as the on^ 

13 in the alternative draft. Page 22, which would give the 

of 

14 General Assembly a veto power over the initiative/ a local 

16 county or the petitioning residents of any of the counties 

16 involved to create any kind of regional governments, if it 

17 is in the nature of a veto, power, not only really destroys 

18 the alternatives available in Section 11.02, as originally 

19 proposed, but also it would seem to really have the opposit(^ 

20 I import of 11.06, from that that the Committee had at the 

21 I time it recommended 11.06. 



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1 ' In addition, on Page 4 of the staff memorandum, 

2 you will see the proposed Questions 2, 3 and 4, which is 
5 that the General Assembly should in fact have the power and 

4 the authority as an exclusive power to create the regions o:|r 

5 boundaries of whatever intergovernmental regional govem- 
5 ment or authority should be created and perhaps this is a 

7 power that should be exclusively that of the General Assemb!(.y, 

8 Then, it's probably important, also, to consider how this 

9 power should be phrased and whether it should serve as a 

10 veto power or an alternative, whether or not this power 

11 should be one that does not have to be exercised by the 

12 General Assembly until there is a request or an exhibit of 

13 interest on the part of the local government either through 

14 the action of the county legislative bodies or by the pe- 

15 j titioners, that would be the residents within the group of 

16 I counties interested in creating such a body; but that upon 

17 such an exhibit of interest, either by a petition to the 

18 General Assembly or acts by the legislative bodies of the 

19 counties, then perhaps it would be well for the General 

20 i Assembly to be in a position where it is no longer a veto 

21 power over whether or not they decide to create the 



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1 boundaries, but becomes an act which they have to perform, 

2 so as to facilitate the initiative that is recognized in 

3 the original 11.02(a), of either the counties or the 

4 residents initiating a proposal. 

5 To just say that the General Assembly can veto 

6 it, of course, would completely negate any kind of initia- 

7 tive by the counties or the residents in the area. 

8 THE CPIAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. 

9 Clagett? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, just briefly, to 

11 reply to the matter of veto being inherent in the alternati 

12 section on Page 22, and in the addendum, I point out to you 

13 that insofar as the section which I am asking be disregarde 

14 you've got three vetos. You've got the concurrent action 

15 of the councils. Then after they act, you've got the 

16 petition, and the people create a different area and ex- 

17 tend the boundaries, thus vetoing the establishment of the 

18 boundaries by the concurrent action of the legislative 

19 councils. Now, you've got two regions, 

20 j Then, along comes the General Assembly and it 

21 says, I don't like anyone of these two. So, it creates 



/e 



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1 i a third region, including the first two regions and thus 

2 vetoes. Then you start the process all over again and 

3 where are you? You are compounding confusion. 

4 MR. BROOKS: Under 11.01(b), even if you adopt 

5 the alternative proposal on Page 22, you've still got the 

6 same problem you described. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: Right now -- I don't want to get 

8 away from the immediate question that is before us. Right 

j 

9 j . now, we're dealing with a very narrow question, as I see it, 

j 

10 j and that is that the creation of the boundaries and the 
I 

11 I creation of the boundaries only shall rest wiuh the General 

12 Assembly. Now, later, we m.ove into other spheres of our 

13 problem and I would rather refer thoseproblems to the ap- 

14 propriate time rather than getting into them, now, and I 

16 think many of the problems we're dealing with now rightfully 

16 I should have been deferred rather than dealing with them, no^ 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? The ques- 

18 tion arises on the motion whether to substitute for con- 

19 sideration by the Commission Section 11.02 in the altema- 

20 j tive form appearing on Page 22, rather than Section 11.02 

21 in the form appearing on Page 9. A vote aye is a vote in 



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1 favor of further consideration of the alternate form. I 

2 again point out to you that under both forms the question 

3 of what further alteration or amendment may be made by one 

4 or more or any of the methods referred to in each of the 

5 sections is still open. The only question being decided on 

6 this motion is V7hether in the first instance, before a 

7 regional government can be established, the Legislature mus 

8 establish the regions or V7hether the regions as well as the 

9 regional governments can in the first instance be created 

10 by the counties or by the voters resident within the region 

11 Are you ready for the question? A vote aye is ii 

12 favor of the alternate on Page 22. All those in favor, 

13 please signify by a show of hands. Contrary? The motion 

14 is carried, 11 to 7. 

15 We nov7 have before you for consideration Section 

16 11.02(a), in the form in which it appears on Page 22. Dr. 

17 Bard? 

18 DR. BARD: I would like to ask a question. How 

19 about the dissolution of regional goveinnment? 

20 THE ClIAIPOMAN: I take it, Mr. Clagett, that the 

21 dissolution of regional government would be possible. 



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under Section 11.02(b), by the Legislature, is that correct' 

MR. CLAGETT: It's specifically provided for r 
there. 

THE CHAIR>1AN: Mr. Case? 

MR. CASE: This is simply a question. When we 
talk about, upon the creation by the General Assembly of 
the boundaries of regions, are we talking, now, about multi- 
county civil divisions? 

THE CHAIR^IAN: I take it that this is what -- 

MR. CLAGETT: Multi-county civil representative 
regional governments. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Something a little smaller than 
civil divisions, but it's still multi-county. 

MR. CASE: VJe're talking about what? 

THE CHAIPl'IAN: Multi-county regional representa- 
tive governments. 

MR. CASE: Can we say that, instead of just 
regions, so it v7ould be more precise and we'll all knov7 
what V7e're talking about? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think v'hat V7e ' re talking about 
here is creation of a region, that is just a geographic 



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1 area, as distinguished from the government of the region. 

2 MR. CASE: But the v7ord region is not used any- 

3 where before, you see. That's a completely nev7 vjord. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

5 DR. BARD: On (b) , including regional represen- 

6 tative governments. 

7 MR. CASE: That's what I'm talking about. That's 

8 the government, not the area, you see. So, you are v7rong. 

9 DR. BARD: Oh, I see. 

10 MR. CASE: Okay. 

11 DR.. BARD: I'm conceding only to gain a larger 

12 point. 

13 MR. CASE: So, it seems to me that the word 

14 region ought to be spelled out V7ith some specificity, so 

15 V7e know exactly what we're talking about. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: All we're talking about, as I 

17 understand it, is any geographical area of the State, 

18 MR. CASE: Of more than one county. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: That's true. 

20 MR. SAYRE: Of more than one portion of a 

21 county. 



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1 THE CHAIRi-lAN: Embracing more than one county. 

2 MR. CASE: Now, we've come full circle. Every- 
2 body here knows what we're talking about, but when they 

4 read this, a reader V7ill never know vjhat V7e're talking about. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the point is well taken, 
5 that the use of the word region here must be tied into the 
rj multi-county concept in the other section. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: I would say so, and I think we've 

9 got a better answer than that and that is we're allowing 

10 the General Assembly to determine the boundaries of regions 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: But'it still must be multi-county. 

12 MR. CTJVGETT: And I would have no objection to 

13 boundaries of regions which shall be multi-county. 

14 MR. SAYRE: Encompassing more than one county. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: May I suggest in the interest of 
15 time that we not try to get the precise phraseology, now. 

' 17 You are talking about a multi-county region, is that correcj:? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: Yes. I'm talking about multi- 

19 counties constituting a region. You've got too many s's in 

20 there. I'm talking about multi-counties constituting- a 

21 region. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: We're talking about a multl- 

2 county region. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Right. 

4 MR. CASE: No v7onder I couldn't understand it. 

5 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, as long as we 

6 have under Section 11.01(a), definitions of units of local 

7 government, it seems to me that somebody on the Style Com- 
9 mittee could define v;hat we mean by region or definitions - 
9 THE CHAIRi>IAN: I want to make certain we all 

10 understand together the same thing and I take it v;hat V7e ' re 

11 talking about is the creation by the General Assem.bly of 

12 the boundaries of a multi-county region. 

13 DR. BARD: That's right. 

14 MR. CASE: Good. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: I think we can well include it 

16 in that Section 11.01(a). 

17 DR. BURDETTE: V7hat do we mean by that? Not 

18 that there have to be two counties, but there has to be at 

19 least parts of two counties. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to get 



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1 one other thing clear. The first word of the alternative 

2 section, we have before us, I would like to change to after 

3 In other words, instead of upon, it v7ould be the v7ord, 

4 after the creation by the General Assembly. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection? Mr. 

6 Mindel? 

7 MR. MINDEL: I'd like to ask Mr. Clagett, suppos(^ 

8 the General Assembly creates a'^region and no action is 

9 taken thereafter on the part of the county. What happens? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: Then the petition of the people 

11 could do it or the General Assembly could do it. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: But if nothing happens by any one 

13 of the three, it just sits? 

14 MR. CLAGETT: Then there's no chance for it. It 

15 answers itself. 

16 MR. CASE: Mr. Chairman, the Chairman amended 

17 his own language and I think he's done himself hurt. VJhat 

18 I have in mind is som.etim.es the General Assembly has passed 

19 a law contingent upon another law becoming effective and it 

20 might well be that they x^70uld set up the governmient and thc.A 

21 set up the region, and this v.'ould be important because the 



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region might be petitioned to referendum. So, it wouldn't 
become a law and they would want the government for the 
region to go into effect immediately after the referendum 
was approved, if it V7as approved. 

We had this very same thing in our intermediate 
Appellate Court where the legislation, as you know, has been 
made contingent upon the Constitional Amendment becoming 
effective. I think your word upon, Hal, is a better word. 

THE CHAIRT-IAN: What you really mean is effective 
upon. 

MR. CLAGETT: No, I don't mean that. I don't 
mean either one. I mean just what I say, namely, that the 
General Assembly can evolve to the eventual establishment 
of regional governments through the use of the classifica- 
tion device and by the trial and error of classification 
and the division of the State into no more than five separal{:e 
classes and the employment of that device, eventually move 
on into the area of the creation of regional governments, 
which means that you've got to have a cart and a horse and 
you don't have to put the tX'7o of them together at the same 
time until you want to use them. 



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1 THE CHAIR14AN: But you do not mean to preclude 

2 the Legislature from creating a regional government simul- 

3 taneously with the creation of the region. 

4 MR. CLAGETT: I don't think that's implicit in 

5 the use of the word after. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That serves to Mr. Case's comment 

7 and I think it's well taken. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: I don't think it's necessary. 

9 DR. BURDETTE: You mean with and after the crea- 

10 tion. 

11 MR, CLAGETT: Upon has a degree of mandatory to 

12 it v;hich I'm not willing to accept. 

13 MR. CASE: I just think it's the vjrong word. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me make this suggestion, 

15 again without -- 

16 MR. CLAGETT: On or after. 

17 THE CHAIPsMAN: Without suggesting that this be 

18 the precise language, the thought that you have is that the 

19 representative government may be established effective upon 

20 the creation of the regions. 

21 ■ MR. CLAGETT: That's right. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Which means either at the same 

2 instant or thereafter. 

3 MRo CLAGETT: Right. Let me clarify it a little 

4 further. Dr. Wins low at one point in discussing this same 

5 problem gave as an exam.ple that the Legislature could go 

6 ahead and create the regions . The government for one of th 

7 regions created would be activated and, insofar as the othe 

8 regions are concerned, there not being the same compelling 

9 necessity as those reasons which caused the activation of 

10 the government in one might be a matter of years in coming 

11 around to developing a structure or form of government for 

12 that particular region. I want that to be possible. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Sayre? 

14 MR. SAYRE: If we have it where we have to wait 

15 for the General Assembly to create a region, is there some 

16 way in V7hich we could amend this section to make it so 

17 that the General Assembly would have to create a region 

18 upon the interest expressed by referendum or something in a 

19 locality? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's exactly the same 

21 as the question on which the Comnrlssion just voted and 



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1 voted to the contrary, in essence. 

2 MR. SAYRE: That we cannot in this way even con- 
5 sider a regional government, really, until we've got a 

4 region? 

5 THE CHAIFMAN: That's the whole point. 

6 MR. SAYRE: Then I have another problem, about 

7 those five per cent voting for Governor, are V7e talking 

8 about five per cent of the entire State? The way I see it 

9 here, that's the way it would work out, because V7hat region 

10 are we talking about? 

11 MR. CLAGETT: I think the language is clear, Mr. 

12 Chairman. 

13 MR, SAYRE; The language with the region isn't 

14 clear, the way I see it. 

15 MR. CASE: Residents of the proposed region. 

16 MR. SAYRE: You are talking about the proposed 

17 region, number one. Then you are talking about five per 

18 cent of those voting for Governor. Maybe I'm wrong, but 

19 it seems a little loose. 

20 THE CllAIRI-lAN: I think the whole pVirase needs 

21 tightening up. I assume you don't mean bearing the names 



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1 of res5-dent votes? You mean signed by registered voters, do 

2 you not? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Well, it says petition and I think 

4 you've got to sign it. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I could present a petition 

6 and sign it myself and have on it the names of 10,000 

7 registered voters, and I don't think that's vjhat you mean. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: You are correct. 

9 MR, CASE: You've got to sign them yourself. 

10 MR. CLAGETT: If anything other than that be m.y 

11 meaning, you better find another word. 

12 THE CHAIRl'IAN: Again, this is a matter of 

13 phraseology, but it seems to me it's a part of the same 

14 notion that Mr. Sayre mentioned. Mrs. Freedlander? 

15 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, the reason why 

16 after is preferred to upon, and I'm not speaking for the 

17 Committee, I'm just adding to the Chairman |s point, is 

18 that although the Commission voted dov7n a Constitutional 

19 provision for dormant regions, what the intent of this 

20 after, the meaning of it is that the Legislature could 

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1 as they were prescribed by the Legislature rather than 

2 constitutionally. So, that's why after is preferred to 
5 upon. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

5 MRS. BOTHE: I think this may have been asked at 
5 the last meeting, but I don't remember the answer. The way 

7 this language reads, I'm not clear whether the Legislature 

8 has to district the entire State into regions before any 

9 region is subject to the provision or V7hether it can do it 

10 piecemeal. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I would assume, in view of the 

12 question that I asked Mr. Clagett earlier about the re- 

13 phrasing of this, that it would be the latter. In other 

14 words, that this would be so rephrased that the General 

15 Assembly could provide for boundaries of a region, one or 

16 more than one. 

17 MRS. BOTHE: I think it ought to go to Style on 

18 this, but the way it's worded now, I think it could be con- 

19 strued to mean that the whole State has to be regionalized 

20 before any region can be activated. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: I think the provision is a little 



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1 bit -- it means in point of fact that the local county 

2 legislative bodies or the citizens of the county would get 

5 I very little opportunity to establish or alter a form of one 

i 

4 of these regional representative governments, because in 

5 point of fact, I agree with what you said, at Port Deposit, 
if the Legislature is going to create regions, it's going 
to create the representative governments in those regions 

8 and I think there should be some flexibility, if we're goin^ 

9 to accept that proposition, as a majority of the Committe 

10 that voted, I think we should provide the language which 

11 would permit the local areas or the voters of the local 

12 area at least to amend or alter the form of the represen- 

13 i tative government and, finally, in addition to the General 

14 Assembly having the power to terminate a regional represen- 

I 

15 j tative government, I see no reason why the people in the 

16 I region shouldn't have the power to terminate and to capture 
J 

17 that thought, and to put it before the body in a formal 

18 motion, I suggest language along the following lines. 

19 In Line 3, where it says -- I'm in the addendum, 

20 now, 22 -- I'll read the sentence. Upon the creation of 

21 !! the General Assembly of the boundaries of regions. 



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1 representative governments for the regions may be establish 

2 or thereafter altered or terminated, and then the rest of 
5 the sentence would remain the same. 

4 I have no particular brief for the language. 

5 The purpose of the language is to make it clear that the 

6 local legislative bodies or the registered voters of those 

7 bodies could alter or amend the form of representative 

8 governm.ent and make it further clear that a regional rep- 

9 resentative government could be terminated not only by the 
10, General Assembly, but by the concurrent action of the 

11 legislative bodies involved in the regional representative 

12 government or by the voters. 

13 I think this would provide a more flexible and 

14 more democratic way of either getting rid of something that 

15 proves to be useless or a m.onster or improving something 

16 that the Legislature gave the area in the first instance. 

17 Is there a second? 

18 MR. SAYRE: Seconded. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I point out to you 

20 that actually under Section 11.01(b), and you can pick that 

21 up quickest by just looking at the first page, the General 



2d , 



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Assembly does have the pov7er to change, merge, dissolve and 



2 alter. There is no question about that and then further 



look at Page 3, Section 11.04, Subsection (c). Any instn.i 

^ ment of government for a county shall provide for its amend 

g ment by a majority vote of the voters of the county, et 

cetera. 
rj MR. SCANLAN: This is not a government -- 

Q MR. CLAGETT: True. There is no reason why 

g actually we couldn't provide for the same thing that is 

20 provided on Page 3, in 11. 04, Subsection (c), with reference 

W to counties, with reference to regional governments. 

12 MR. SCANLAN: That V7as the purpose of my amend 

22 ment. 

24 MR. CLAGETT: I think it v7ould be consistent wit 

25 what \<ie. have done insofar as the counties are concerned. 
25 THE CHAIRI4AN: V/ould you, Mr. Scanlan, care to 

27 amend your motion to provide instead that Section 11.02 be 

28 amended so -as to provide, with reference to regional govern 

29 ments, provisions similar to those contained in Section 
20 11.04, with reference to county governments? 
22 MR. SCANLAN: Yes. 1 have no brief for the 



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1 


language. That's the idea. 




2 


THE CHAIRMAN: Would you accept that, Mr. Sayre? 




3 


MR. SAYRE: Yes. 




4 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, will we not 




5 


have to change 11.01(b), then, because some of this will be 




6 


repetitious? 




7 


THE CHAIR>LAN: No. I take it that 11.01(b) is 




8 


intended to express the notion that notwithstanding local 




9 


home rule for counties, regions and so forth, the Legislatui 


e 


10 


nevertheless retains the power to abolish them or to alter 




11 


them and so forth. 




12 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: And multi-county civil divi- 




13 


sions are in that, too. 




14 


THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. 




15 


MR. CLAGETT: By that degree of repetition, you 




16 


are including the petition process which you wouldn't other- 




17 


wise have in the other t^-^o . 




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THE CHAIRl'IAN: Right. Mr. Haile? 




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1 MR. HAILE: I would suggest that the third word, 

2 which is creation -- 

3 THE CHAIRl-lAN: That's a different amendment. We 

4 haven't acted on this one yet. Is there any further discus- 

5 sion of Mr. Scanlan's motion? 

6 DR. BARD: I have a question. Mr. Chairman, does 

7 that mean, as I follov? 11.04(c), if v;e're drawing parallel 

8 relationships there, that it would be by a majority vote of 

9 the voters? 

10 THE CHAIPvMAN: Of the region. 

11 DR. BARD- Voters in the region? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

13 DR. BARD: All right. 

14 THE CHAIRi4AN! Any further discussion? Ready 
16 for the question? The question arises on the m.otion that 

16 Section 11.02(a), alternate form, be amended to provide 

17 provisions, with reference to a region, provisions similar 

18 to Section 11.04 with reference to a county. All those in 

19 favor signify by saying aye. Contrary, no? The ayes have 

20 it. 

21 Now, Mr. Haile? 



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3_ MR. HAILE: What I would consider to be clarify- 

g ing an amendment v7ould be to change the third word from 

g creation to establishment, so it would read, After the es- 

4 tablishment by the General Assembly of the boundaries of a 

K multi-county region, representative governments for the 

g region may be created. In other words, transposing those 

Tj two words, to me, is much clearer. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett, do you have any com- 

ment? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: I believe, from the point of view 

]_! of style, since back over there in 11.01(b), we used the 

12 word creation, I'd rather stick to creating and then there 

13 is no question about what we mean. 

14 THE CHAIRi^IAN: Well, creating which? Mr. Haile 
25 suggests that you create the governments, but establish 

Ig the boundaries. 

lY MR. HAILE: I was going to suggest the same 

13 amendment to that 11.01(b). 

MR. CLAGETT: I think that by -- I do not want 

20 to pre-empt the right of the General Assem^bly to create at 

21 one in the same time, if it sees fit to do so -- 



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THE CHAIRlvlAN: His point is merely in the use of 
the v;ords. He suggests that you create the government, but 
you establish the boundaries, rather than create the boun- 
daries and establish the government. 

MR. CLAGETT: I can't see any distinction be- 
tween the tv7o, frankly, so I'm not going to press something 
that I think is synonymous, except that possibly creation 
has a little bit broader connotation than mere establishment: 

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it seems to me for that very 
reason there is some force in his suggestion. 

MR. CLAGETT: In making it establish, rather 
than holding onto the dual -- I will not oppose that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection to Mr. 
Haile's suggestion that you transpose the words and say es- 
tablish in the first line and create or created in the third 
line? If not, we'll make the change. You suggested that 
accordingly that change should be m.ade vjhere, Mr. Haile? 

MR. HAILE: 11.01, the General Assembly may 
prescribe by lav7 for the establishment and alteration of 
boundaries of counties, multi-counties, civil divisions. 
See, counties have already been created. The establishment 



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1 alteration of boundaries by the General Assembly. In the 

2 future, they would have that power without referendum. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: I wouldn't want that same distinc- 

4 tion to apply to intergovernmental authorities , and crea- 

5 tion applies to them as well as multi-county civil division 

6 as well as counties. 

7 MR. HAILE: Well, this 11.01(b), it says. The 

8 General Assembly. may establish the boundaries, and then 

9 there are alternatives. It repeats it, upon establishment 

10 of boundaries by the General Assembly. 

11 THE CHAIRl-lAN: May I suggest we leave the wordin: 

12 to the Committee on Style? They may decide to come up V7ith 

13 the present Constitutional phrase and say erection. 

14 MR. HAILE: I think it's a question of style. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question as to 11.02(^.)'? 

16 I take it, Mr. Sayre, the question you raised and the sup- 

17 plement to it that I added would be taken care of by the 

18 motion to adopt the provisions of 11.04. Dr. Burdette? 

19 DR. BURDETTE: I should like to get an interpre- 

20 tation of the meaning of may, the second word in the third 

21 line, as to whether that runs counter to an earlier 



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1 provision that these shall be representative governments. 1 

2 think it's 11.01(b), where it says they may create, but the 

3 must be represented. Now, does this m.ay satisfy all the 

4 lawyers? I'm talking about 11.02(a). 

5 THE CHAIRi4AN: I think the answer to it. Dr. 

6 Burdette, it would be much better to remove any doubt and 

7 could very easily be done if the section is rephrased to 

8 follow the pattern of 11.04, by saying, for instance, that 

9 the counties may provide for the creation of a regional 

10 government v;hich shall be representative in character. 

11 DR. BURDETTE: All right. Then I have just one 

12 other question and I presume there v7ould be no objection to 

13 saying vjhat -~ it says acts of the county legislative body. 

14 I should think that action of the legislative bodies of the 

15 counties therein, although I'm afraid of therein, because 

16 they may not be totally therein, but this could be read as 

17 all the counties in the State. The second word is concurrer 

18 As I first read it, I thought it had to be concurrent with 

19 the Legislature, but I think it's concurrent among them- 

20 selves. 

21 THE CHAIRJ-UN: I'd like to ask a question in 



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1 connection with that. Was it deliberately intended that 

2 this be action of the county legislative body as distinguis 

3 from a county local law which in effect v7ould be joint 

4 action, of the county and the Executive? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: 1 think, to be perfectly frank, I 

6 don't think we thought of that distinction. I'm sure I 

7 didn't. I was thinking in terms of action by the county 

8 legislative bodies and that would be more than one county 

9 acting concurrently, but I can't visualize the difference 

10 between that and one county acting by law conditioned upon 

11 another county at a later date concurring with it and thus 

12 comes into existence a course of action. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, but I don't think that was 

14 the point. The question is do you mean to limit it to 

15 legislative body? Don't you mean action by the county? It 
15 may be by the County Council and the Executive or it may be 

17 by the County Commissioners, in a county commissioner 

18 governm.ent, but not just action by the county legislative 

19 body. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: I think V7e meant just the county 

21 lisgislative bodies, because this is primarily within the 



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1 realm of the legislative action to establish and create 

2 governments. It's a basic form of government that should 

than 

5 rest with the legislative branch, rather/ to include the 

4 Executive. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: You mean it would not be a county 
5 law, in other words? 

7 MR. CLAGETT: It would not necessarily be a countjy 

9 law. It could be by the concurring action of the county 

9 legislat5-ve bodies. 

10 THE CHAIRl'^IAN: What about county commissioners? 

11 MR. CLAGETT: Well, they are still legislative 

12 bodies. They happen to be both legislative and executive. 

13 I don't think that one would exclude the other. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 
16 DR. BARD: What I was just going to suggest, 

16 county governing bodies. Then you would include the pos- 

17 sibility of either a county council where it exists or the 

18 commissioner form of government where the council does not 

19 yet exist. The governing body would cover either possibilit[7 

20 wouldn't it? 

21 MR. HAILE: No. We have great difficulty if you 



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use governing body, whereas, if you use legislative body, 
it's clear. 

DR. BARD:. You think that would cover the com- 
missioners as well? 

MR. HAILE: Yes. 



THE CHAIRtlAN: I don't understand why it's desircfd 
that it not simply be county action, if the charter requires 
the law to be approved by the county executive -- 

MR. HAILE: The previous phrase refers to the 
General Assembly. We don't say the State. We say the 
General Assembly, which is a -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is this intended? 

MR. HAILE: That's what we intend. 

MR. CLAGETT: Yes, because it's alternative, Mr. 
Chairman, to the petition approach and we don't mean to 
consolidate the two. 

THE CHAIRMAN: But you do not mean action by the 
General Assembly by law? 

MR. CLAGETT: No, we do not. 

MR. HAILE: I thought we meant action by the 
General Assembly subject to Executive veto, subject to 



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referendum. 

MR. SAYRE: In fact, we agreed on that. 

DR. BURDETTE: I thought it was amended, by 
agreement, by law. 

MR. SAYRE: Mr. Chairman, I have additional 
problems -- 

MR. CASE: Let's clear this one first. 

MR. CLAGETT: Where we did provide the -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: 11.01(b) says the General Assembljr 
may provide by law for the creation, and so forth. 

DR. BURDETTE: You all agreed it meant by law, 
and I V7as arguing that V7e put it in and it was left in ther< 

THE CHAIRMAN: You don't intend som.ething dif- 
ferent in 11.02(a), now? 

MR. CLAGETT: Frankly, I think we intended it, 
but the advisability of the intent is the question. Mr. 
Brooks, V7ould you like to ansv7er that? 

MR. BROOKS: I think you are right in your state- 
ment that this was just a substitute for what is ultimately 
the third alternative which is the petitioning process, 
that this is altogether representative of the will of the 



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1 people without any executive responsibility all the way 

2 along the line in the creation of these governments. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Say re? 

4. MR. SAYRE: Let's see if I understand this cor- 

5 rectly. The way this reads, you have three levels of going 

5 about this. Suppose that you say you can take action by 

7 whatever method a county v^ishes to go about. So, one 

9 county council submits it to referendum and the county com- 

9 missioners in the other place, by ordinance or whatever 

10 they say we agree and the two of them get together by which 

11 ever way they will do it. Isn't that acceptable? 

12 MR. CLAGETT: We're talking about an initiating 

13 process here and in order to have a degree of flexibility 

14 insofar as the initiation is concerned, that is, the 

15 starting of the movement, we were thinking in terms of 
15 three distinct alternative methods and, by use of county 

17 legislative bodies, V7e classified that that would be an 

18 alternative approach. 

19 By use of the petition approach, you had a 

20 second distinct alternative approach. Changing that in the 

21 manner V7e are now discussing would be to consolidate the 



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1 two approaches in some degree, it seems to me, because if 

2 by lav; you required it to be, insofar as the counties are 
5 concerned, then it must be approved by the referendum pro- 

4 cedure of the people and you then have a blurring of your 

5 lines of distinction with reference to alternative choice, 

6 it seems to me. 

7 MR. SAYRE: You x^ish to tie it down? 

8 MR. CLAGETT: And we wish to tie it down to al- 

9 ternative choice and on the initiation or possibly by 

10 initiation of the concurring action of county legislative 

11 bodies. 

12 THE CHAIRMANiIt seem.s to me the notion is not con- 

13 sistent with other actions we've taken where, not uniformly, 

14 but almost uniformly we've shied away from action of the 

15 General Assembly that is not a law and required action of 

16 the General Assembly to be in the forrri of law. It seem.s to 

17 me you have many undesirable consequences if you depart froii 

18 that. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: I believe that, too, and that's 

20 why I say the advisability of vjhat we put in here might be 

21 a matter to be decided on. 



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MR. CASE: Just to bring it to a head, I v7ould 
move that 11.02(a), found on Page 22, be amended to provide 
that the action of the General Assembly therein stated shall 
be by law and also to provide that the concurrent action of 
the counties shall be by law. 

MR. MARTINEAU: I second it. 

THE CHAIR1-LA.N: Any discussion? Any further 
comment, Mr. Clagett? 

MR. CLAGETT: Again, this is putting me in the 
realm of personal expression. I believe, personally, I 
would prefer the by law procedure, but I believe that the 
consensus of the Committee v7ould be contrary to that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? The ques 
tion arises on the motion to amend Section 11.02(a) which 
would provide that the action of the General Assembly shall 
be by law and that the concurrent action of the counties 
shall be by law. All those in favor please signify by a 
show of hands. Contrary? None. It's approved unanimously. 

Any further comment or question as to Section 
11.02(a)? 

MR. MARTINEAU: Did we ever clear up Mr. Sayre's 



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1 question as to what five per cent we were talking about? 

2 THE CHAIRI'IAN: It's intended to be five per cent 

3 of those voting for Governor in resident in the region and 

4 the language is to be rephrased accordingly. 

5 If not, let's move forward then to consideration 

6 of 11.02(b), on Page 9. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: Here we're dealing with the powers 

8 of the regional governments. Once the boundaries have been 

9 established and the structure is being devised, and it was 

10 thought here that there ought to be a clarification of hovj 

11 the powers would flov; into the regional governmentsand V7e 

12 have provided or V7e have thought and recommend that a 

13 specific provision should be included in the Constitution 

14 to avoid a vacuum vchich would exist without such an express 

15 provision and, accordingly, we have recommended several 

16 alternative V7ays . 

17 One, by the governing bodies of all counties 

18 V7ithin or partly within the region; two, by the General 

19 Assembly enacting a public law withdrawing powers from the 

20 county within or partly within the region, and three, by 

21 the delegation of pov7ers of the State. 



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1 THE CHAIRI^IAN: But not by powers in a charter 

2 adopted by the people? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Well, they are still going to have 

4 to drav7 the powers from some one source and, rather than 

5 having the region come up with a charter which would run 

6 contrary and in conflict with the counties composing that 

7 region, I believe the ansvjer v7ould be no. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: So that the county would, in ef- 

9 feet, or the General Assembly, have a veto over the powers 

10 given to the region. Judge Adkins? 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, in order to pro- 

12 voke some discussion, I would like to propose a rather radi 

13 cal amendment to Paragraph (b) , which would be to substi- 

14 tute language similar to the following in lieu of the lan- 

15 gu^ge of Paragraph (b): 

15 After the establishment of such regional govern- 

17 ments, all governmental powers exercised by other local 

18 governmental bodies within the region shall be exclusively 

19 exercised by said regional governments. 

20 MR. CASE: I second it. 

21 ■ JUDGE ADKINS: I'd like to speak briefly on it. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: It's seconded. Go ahead. 

JUDGE ADKINS: It seems to me we're creating a 
solution here which doesn't really solve the problem its 
attempting to solve. As I understand it, the most per- 
suasive argument for the creation of a regional governm.ent 
is to prevent proliferation of authorities and intergovern- 
mental compacts of one kind or another. If, however, we 
create a regional government having less than all the 
governmental powers within the area, we're doing nothing 
more than, it seems to me, creating a hydraheaded govern- 
mental section which is made up of not tv;o proliferation 
possibilities, but three. You have local governments, 
regional governments and the then existing intergovemmenta! 
compacts . 

If you are to have a regional government, it make 
sense to me that that government should replace the local 
government. If you are not going to have a regional govern- 
ment which does not replace the local, then it makes sense 

so 
to me to do /by the interchange of pov^ers and intergovern- 
mental compacts. I can't, j.n my own thinking, see a place 
for a regional government having less than all the powers 



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of the local governments within the area served by the 
region. 

It doesn't seem to me that you aid the problem 
by creating and placing on the burden of the taxpayer, if 
I want to wave the flag, a third overhead structure which 
will, in accordance with these provisions, operate within 
a limited area. For that reason, I think, if you have it, 
it should do the whole job. If it isn't going to do the 
v;hole job, I don't think you ought to have it. That's the 
reason for my motion. 

THE CHAIRl^Mr Would you, before we have further 
discussion, give us again the suggested language a little 
more slowly? 

JUDGE ADKINS: With the caveat, this language is 
suggestive, after the establishment of such regional govern- 
ment, all governmental powers exercised by all other local 
governmental bodies within the region shall be exclusively 
exercised by said regional government. 

MPx.. HOFF: Does that include municipalities, 
also? 

MR, MILLER: Would that apply to municipal 



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1 corporations? 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: Maybe it v7ould have to be quali- 
5 fied to eliminate them. 

4 THE CliAIRIvIAN: Give me the terms again. All 

5 local government powers , what? 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: Exercised by other local govern- 

7 mental bodies vjithin the region shall be exclusively exer- 

8 cised by said regional government. 

9 MR. MILLIER: A question. 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Miller? 

11 MR. MILLER: VJould that do away with any 

12 municipal government v;ithin the region? 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: I think it would, but it was not 

14 intended to. For that reason, the language would have to be 

15 refined. I said I was proposing language to get the idea, 
15 not the precise content. 

17 MR. MILLER: It just affects -- 

18 DR. BURDETTE: Is it the intent of the mover, al- 

19 so to place in the regional government all of the adminis- 

20 tration of records of land titles? 

21 JUDGE ADKINS: To the extent that they are not 



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1 now in most counties within the confines of the local 

2 governmental unit. They are within the confines of the 

3 court system, but in areas where they are, they would then 

4 be subject to the regional government. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

6 MRS. BOTHE: Would this abrogate all governmenta:. 

7 authorities? 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: I would think so. 

9 MR. DELLA: Do I gather that it would take over 

10 all regional governments? 

11 JUDGE ADKINS: If the regional governments were 

12 established, let's say, Baltimore County, Anne Arundel and 

13 Prince Georges, then the regional government would be the 

14 local governing body within that area, instead of having 

15 the local authorities in the pre-existing counties. It 

16 v7ould be one governmental unit responsible for the solution 

17 of the local problems of governments within the region. 

18 MR. DELLA: I could see no problem taking in the 

19 counties, as such, but I could see a lot of confusion if 

20 you are going to try to incorporate the regional government 

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1 JUDGE ADKINS: I think we might exclude munici- 

2 palities, and I don't think this would answer your question 

3 because as I understand, Baltimore City is classified here 

4 not as a municipality, but a county. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

6 MR. GENTRY: Mr. Clagett, counties will have 

7 powers not denied by charter or general law. Can the 

8 General Assembly delegate powers identical to a county to 

9 a regional government? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: By general law they can utilize 

11 the classification procedure and where the law applies to 

12 all counties within a classification or to all counties 

13 within the State, the answer is yes, they could do so. 

14 MR. GENTRY: But, in setting up a particular 

15 regional government, just one, they could give that regiona:. 

16 government identical powers? 

17 MR. CLAGETT: By withdrawal, yes, provided it 

18 met the criteria of the general law and that's why you've 

19 got to have the provision as we provide later for classif ic^j 

20 tion by population or other criteria, so that you can make 

21 use of the general law within the definition as we made it 



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1 here apply to the establishment of regional governments. 

2 .. THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

3 DR. BARD:. It seems to me that the intent of the 

4 motion is to help those vjho believe that there ought to be 

5 a number of choices and alternatives, to defeat the very 

6 purpose which we intend. The v7hole concept of setting up 

7 regional governments side by side with other possibilities 

8 was to prepare us for transition periods which are likely 

9 to last for 25, 50 or more years. 

10 The way the motion reads, the concept is to ab- 

11 sorb. Now, we all realize that this is the very fear which 

12 many people in Maryland have and, if we set this forth, 

13 it's perfectly understandable that this is the kiss of deatji 

14 MR. SCANLAN: That's its purpose. 

15 DR. BARD: Well, I'm just putting it in the 

16 minutes. 

17 MR. HOFF: I think his Honor is using the old 

18 legislative gimmick of sweetening this to the point of 

19 palatability and, although this may be his desire, I think 

20 it departs from the results we're trying to arrive at here 

21 today. 



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privilege. 



JUDGE ADKINS: That's a point of personal 



THE CHAIPvMAN: Mr. Case? 



MR, CASE: Well, I seconded the motion and since 
Stan Hoff used the v7ord his Honor, I know he couldn't be 
talking about me. 

MR. HOFF: You are just honorable. 

MR. CASE: I understand all that, so I'd like 
to speak to V7hat he said. Before the luncheon recess, I 
voiced a genuine concern about the increasing number of 
regional authorities and governments that could take over in 
a given area and I spoke of Hyattsville, Maryland, where I 
said there vjould be four, but actually, upon further reflec- 
tion and counting the Washington Suburban Commission, there 
actually v7ould be five agencies bearing on the small home 
ov7ner or earner in one community, and they v7ould have the 
chance to elect under this program four sets of officials, 
one for the State, the House of Delegates, one for the 
county and one to the town council and one to the regional 
council; I suppose there would be a council. 

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1 wait until you get regional elections. But I think inheren 

2 in Judge Adkins ' motion is this. If the need does come, as 

3 has been explained by Mr. Ency today, to have the regional 

4 government, then let's go all the way and give it true 

5 status as a government, transfer the powers in that particu 

6 lar area which the counties might have had to it and let's 

7 set it up really for what it is and let it cope V7ith the 

8 problems it has to cope with v;ith the greatest amount of 

9 power you can give it. 

10 It seems to me it's either fish or foul. If it'^ 

11 a government and not an authority, let's make it a govern- 

12 ment. If this is done, it will by the same token reduce 

13 the proliferation of government agencies operating in the 

14 area and strengthen the hands of the very agency that you 

15 wish to create to solve your problem. So, it seems to me 
16' that anything less than this is a compromise with the 

17 principle you are trying to ennunciate here. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Say re? 

19 MR. SAYRE: Number one, a regional government 

20 as we have discussed it today is merely maybe a multi-pur- 

21 pose authority that has responsiveness to the people and 



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1 accountability to the people, which most authorities are 

2 unable to render. It has delegated powers, regardless of 

3 whether it comes from above or from below and that's all 

4 we're talking about and I think that we have to vjalk before 

5 we can run and I think you would agree with that. We can 

6 only say we're delegating certain functions on an area wide 

7 basis to a region and V7e're calling it a government because 

8 it's responsive and accountable to the people. Now, that's 

9 all V7e mean. 

10 Nov7, let's go backwards. It's a lot easier to 

11 make smaller units out of larger units than to re-consoli- 

12 date and, as Louis Goldstein loves to talk about the develop 

13 ment of this State where we had just a few counties and we 

14 made more, we made five counties out of two counties on the 

15 Eastern Shore. We split Montgomery from Prince Georges. 

16 It's going to be a lot harder to get them back together 

17 again as one entity than it would be to delegate certain 

18 functions that they both have an interest in to a regional 

19 government. 

20 Another thing that is really your bailiwick, 

21 that V7e have good governments in solvent areas where they 



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1 could have rationalization of their tax impact, maybe more 

2 by general obligation bonds and revenue bonds which issue 

3 would be less expensive, and we aren't going to have that 

4 from authorities. It would seem to me we have to simply 

5 allow for what takes its course, for regional governments. 

6 THE CHAIE14AN: Mr. Miller? 

7 MR. MILLER: Isn't it also already in the Consti 

8 tution, if you wanted such a government, first of all, it's 

9 got to be approved by the Legislature as a region and, 

10 secondly, if the Legislature wants to, it could take all 

11 that and make one county of it? 

12 MR. SAYRE: That's correct. 

13 MR. MILLER: Which would accomplish all that this 

14 motion would accomplish, and with a little more clarity be- 

15 cause we know about the municipalities. 

16 What we're really talking about is som^e thing 

17 .that's in between and V7e apparently want something in between, 

18 MR. SAYRE: I would say yes. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Mr. 

20 Brooks? 

21 MR. BROOKS: I think the motion as it's made 



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1 really re-establishes for the group to consider the very 

2 question that was considered at the Brown Estate. The mo- 

3 tion in its effect doesn't establish anything that is not 

4 already in this very provision. As Congressman Miller just 

5 mentioned, under the alternative which is one of the three 

6 alternatives for establishing regional govemments, you can 

7 do so by the merger of the counties and this has been per- 

8 haps expedited, if at all possible, because of the elimina- 

9 tion of a requirement for ratification by such merger of 

10 the residents of the county, but if a county is merged with 

11 a separate county, then you do, in fact, have this new 

12 political subdivision completely displacing those that were 

13 there formerly in the nature of the counties. 

14 So, that the whole purpose of 11.02 was to estab- 

15 lish a third alternative, so that the effect of the present 

16 motion would be to destroy that alternative and to merge it 

17 .with the alternative of creating a larger county. So that 

18 the question considered at the Brown Estate was should there 

19 be a second alternative and that v;as voted on as a single 

20 question and V7as a favorable vote. So, the effect of this 

21 motion would be exactly to the contrary, to eliminate the 



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1 alternative of what is probably, rather than a lump sum 

2 jump to the kind of government that may ultimately be 

3 desirable as a recognition that the creation of a larger 

4 government is something which has to take place in' stages 

5 and through growth rather than something to be created over- 

6 night. 

7 So that perhaps it's not practical to create a 

8 regional govemmient as a full-fledged regional government 

9 overnight, even if for some purposes it's desirable. Cer- 

10 tainly, politically, it's not. On the other hand, the 

11 creation of some in betv7een functional governments for 

12 authorities would solve some of the pressing problems of 

13 the time and permit the development of the State in which- 

14 ever direction it might go, vjhether it be to larger local 

15 government units or smaller local government units, but it 

16 is in recognition that there will be a long period before 

17 you are really able to alter the counties V7hich are based 

18 on historical precedents appreciably enough to permit any 

19 kind of reasonable government formation to solve many of the 

20 problems that exist in the Washington Metropolitan D.C. and 

21 Baltimore area. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

2 " MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, personally, I rather 
5 like the motion, but I am not going to vote in favor of it 

4 because I don't think it goes far enough. If it was going 

5 to mean that the General Assembly would get down to the 

5 task of abolishing all counties and creating new counties 

7 consisting of, instead of 24, five or six, then I v;ould go 

8 along with it, because it's a clean sv7eep approach and it 

9 would solve many, many problems of government that we have 

10 to deal with now; but the piecemeal method I don't believe 

11 would be quite acceptable. 

12 I'm pursuaded by just what was said a m.oment ago, 

13 also, that Subsection (b) as written now in the present 

14 Seventh Report would permit the very same thing to be accom- 

15 plished if the advisability X'^as such and the demand was 

16 such that the General Assembly v/anted to do so. 

17 ' THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: Or the counties wanted to do so or 

19 the people wanted to do so. 

20 DR. BARD: I was going to say I'm going to vote 

21 against it because it goes too far in order to keep us from 



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1 going far enough. 

2 .... THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? I would 
5 like to state my own views just briefly. I am fully in ac- 

4 cord v;ith the concerns expressed by Mr. Case. I think they 

5 are very real concerns, but I don't think that the solution 

6 here is any solution. . I think all we do is to put the 

7 Legislature and the people in a straight jacket by taking 

8 away completely any power of providing a solution to the 

9 many problems other than by consolidation of counties, and 

10 I think our experience in recent years indicates that V7e 

11 must have as much flexibility as we can. 

12 I think the problems that are present, financial 

13 problems, are problems V7hich can be resolved by the 

14 Legislature and by the legislative bodies of the partici- 

15 pating counties in any region. Judge Adkins? 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: First of all, I did not make the 

17 motion in an attempt to kill the concept of regional govern- 

18 ment, despite the rather sinister motives that have been at- 

19 tributed to me . I do see a real place for regional govern- 

20 ments in Maryland local governmental demands. They may in- 

21 deed be fast upon us. I do not think there is a demand for 



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another interlarding of governmental action which can only 
serve, in my own observation, to create more confusion, if 
you have another body imposed in part on top and in part 
equal and in part way out in left field within the existing 
governmental structure. 

I do not agree with Congressman Miller or with 
Mr. Brooks that this is the same solution to the problem 
that is offered by the merging or combining of counties. To 
begin with, this avoids the psychological impact that is 
created by trying to do away with the historic county his- 
tories and county lines and county affiliations. That is 
not involved in this proposal. It would not arouse the 
opposition in that fashion. All the other representations 
in the General Assembly and so forth that are tied to 
existing county structures now and probably would continue 
to be tied, would not be affected by the regional government 
proposed here. 

1 can see I'm not going to win this vote, but we 
have had discussion on the issue. I do think this is the 
way it should go. 

THE CHAIR24AN: The question arises on the motion 



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to amend the section to provide that in the establishment 
of regional governments, all governmental powers exercised 
by other local governmental bodies except municipal cor- 
porations within the region shall be exclusively exercised 
by the regional government. 

A vote aye is a vote in favor or that proposition 
All those in favor please signify by a shov? of hands. 
Contrary? The motion is ]ost 3 to 17. Any further con- 
sideration of Section (b)? 

(There was a short recess.) 

THE CHAIRMAN: Can we come to order, please. Mr. 
Martineau, you had the floor. 

MR. MA.RTINEAU: The question I was raising, 
apparently there's an oversight here. I had understood from 
our previous votes that regional governments V7ere to have 
the power to impose taxes. That is not provided for in the 
last sentence of 11.02(b), and I question vjhether that was 
an oversight. It was thought that was the reason we made 
these representative governments, so they could invoke 



taxes . 



MR. CLAGETT: Let me clarify what I think Mr. 



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1 Martineau has picked up there. If you will refer to Sub- 

2 section (c) of 11.02, which appears just under that last 
5 sentence he is referring to, you will see that the Committed 

4 has done v^hat the Cominission told it to do and that was to 

5 give to the intergovernmental authorities the power to im- 
5 pose and collect revenues and to borrov? money, but only to 
Y collect those taxes imposed by the General Assembly or rep- 

8 resentative governments. It vjould have the pox-7er of collec- 

9 tion, not the power of imposition. 

IQ Nov;, as the last sentence appears in Subsection 

11 (t>), we have carried through apparently with that language 

12 the same idea. The question is do we want to limit the 

1Z regional governments to the power of collecting taxes or do 

X4 we want to give them the power to impose and collect taxes. 
15 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the whole point of the 

15 regional governments, was that they should have the pov7er 

17 to impose taxes. 
]LQ MR. CLAGETT: I think that's what we intended to 

19 do, but we omitted doing that. 

20 THE CHAIRI^IAN: Wouldn't it be very simple to 

21 cover the whole thing by adding a phrase after the word 



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1 power in the first line, powers, including the power to 

2 levy taxes or whatever the appropriate language might be? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: You mean after the -- 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: After the word powers, the very 

5 first word of (b), including the power to tax or impose 

6 taxes, whatever the proper phrase might be. 

7 MR. BROOKS: V7e might just combine the whole thin^ 

8 under (c). 

9 . MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes, put it all under (c). 

10 MR, CLAGETT: No, I don't think so. I think we 

11 better keep those separate because we're dealing with inter- 

12 governmental authorities here and there is a distinction, 

13 because the Commission, as I understood it, V7ith reference 

14 to the intergovernmental authorities, since they were not 

15 representative, they v;ere not elected, wanted a distinction 

16 made and I believe it v;as Mr. Case who said -- no. Judge 

17 Adkins raised that point and the Committee is in agreement 

18 with that restriction upon their authority, 

19 THE CHAIRMAN- All right, can we leave to the 

20 Committee on Style the precise language, but say that you 

21 will insert appropriate language after the word powers to 



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1 make it clear that it includes the power to tax and borrow 

2 money and so forth. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, sir, I think that's satis- 

4 factory. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

6 DR. BARD: Would that power include the power to 

7 absorb or take over some of the debts of the local govern- 

8 ments as they surrendered some of their activities and 

9 property? 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: I would think so. 

11 DR. BARD: Is it clear? If it is, then that 

12 satisfies me. What I have in mind is as follows. Suppose 

13 let us say, Baltimore City were to com.bine in a regional 

14 government and absorbed within that were a goodly number of 

15 the sewerage resources and water resources which it now owr; 

16 If there were some bonds which vere still out in this con- 

17 nection or, for that matter, the total value of all of 

18 this property would need to somehow or other be cleared up 

19 with the City itself. Would they have that power? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I think you've touched there on £ 

21 problem that is not very clear under this language and one 



s . 



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1 which has concerned some people, that is, whether the 

2 creation of a regional government should carry with it the 
5 power to take over existing utilities or properties within 

4 the region. 

5 I would assume that they could not do so without 
g compensation. There is certainly nothing expressed in this 
7 section dealing with that subject. Mr. Clagett, did your 

9 Committee have any comment on that part of the problem, in 

9 particular? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: I think you've got several factors 

11 involved there. I don't think you can abrogate a contract 

12 and I think elsevjhere in the Constitution we've taken care 

13 of compensation upon use of the condemnation power. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: That refers to private property, 

15 though. This would not be private property. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: And the Committee has dealt V7ith 

17 this in somewhat of a different approach and that is vjhere, 

18 let us say, the assets of a county are being taken over or 

19 the assets of a city are being taken over on dissolution of 

20 that city by its consent or by general law, whether or not 

21 compensation should be provided. 



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1 Mrs. Kostritsky raised the point in that there 

2 has been a court decision and a fairly recent one, Baltimor^ 

3 versus State, 1 don't know how recent, but in any event, 
4r sometime back, where there V7as actually a taking over of 

5 public assets by one unit and the Court held that you were - 

6 and dealing with the question of com.pensation -- to whom 

7 would the compensation be paid. After all, what is being 

8 done is for a public purpose and wtere a public property 

9 is being taken over by another public property, where is 

10 there any necessity, and they found there was no necessity 

11 to make compensation. 

12 - Well, this thing gets into focus in that, as 

13 Mrs. Kostritsky pointed out, there is an investment by the 

14 City in many, many different areas and possibly they 

15 wouldn't want to lose the hundreds of millions of dollars 

16 that have been invested in physical improvements of one 

17 ' kind or another. So, I think that actually the only ansv7er 

18 that I can give is that since we are creating new govern- 

19 ments through responsible sources, namely, the action of 

20 the General Assembly or by action of the concurring legis- 

21 lative councils or by petition, that there is no specific 



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provision for compensation made here. It would have to be 






2 


upon the wise discretion and sound wisdom of the creating 






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body. 






4 


THE CHAIRMAN; Mr. Delia? 






5 


MR. DELIA: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me these 






6 


factors would have to be determined at the time the 






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regional government is established and the method in which 






8 


the establishment is going to be made. If it's going to 


i 
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be a merger of a couple of counties or subdivision, they 


' 




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would naturally assume all the liabilities and assets that 






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those particular counties would be involved in, because it 


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would be under one government as such. If you are going to 


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establish a regional government and still have certain loca 


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governments in effect, these things would have to be taken 






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into effect through negotiating or whatever they are going 






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to do. Setting up the regional government would determine 






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v;here they are going to get their assets or operations of 






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the government from. 






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Constitution certain guide lines they have to follov? when 






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1 where they would not be able to operate if they had to fol- 

2 low them. 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I found my notes and 

4 I believe where I made m.y notes on this point, I made a 

5 little bit more of a concise digestion than I did a few 

Q moments ago. Number one, the use would still be public and 

7 for the use and benefit of the public. Two, it is a matter 

8 of public policy, including right and desirability of com- 

9 pensation, and three, it is a m.atter for statute, not con- 

10 stitutional writing; four, it v7ould be a restriction to try 

11 to include it here upon the legislative prerogative, and 

12 five -" would not apply. 

13 THE CHAIRMA.N: What V7as number two? 

14 MR. CLA.GETT: Well, my five applied only to 

15 counties rather than -- my two was, it is a matter of publi 
15 policy, including the right and desirability of compensatioji 

17 • and to whom. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

19 MR. SCANLAN: In all these cases where, for in- 

20 stance, you are joining a line with two counties, it would 

21 be a settlement provision. I suppose it would be an assesse 



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1 evaluation of the lines of one county and assessed evaluatior 

2 of the lines of the other. 1 suppose the Legislature v7ould 

3 in the formula or statute which provides for the creation 

4 of a unit provide a set off in some way for the second 

6 county that had the more valuable property to be compen- 

6 sated in some way. 

7 'I don't see hov; this could be handled now. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of this 

9 question raised by. Dr. Bard? 

10 DR. BARD: I don't think it's settled. 

THE CHAIRl^IAN: No, I don't think it is, except 
to the extent that Mr. Clagett has indicated, that, as I 

13 understand his comments, the feeling of the Committee that 

14 it's not a question that could be resolved in the Constitu- 

15 tion. The resolution would depend upon too many factors 

16 that would have to be dependent upon each particular case 

17 ■ and it v7ould be the utilization of properties for public 

« 

18 use and, therefore, a legislative question, as I understand 

19 it, as to whether its utilization is for public use. 

20 This does not reach the question that Dr. Jenkinb 

21 raised several meetings ago, that a county or Baltimore Citj^ 



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1 could lose a substantial part of its tax base by a transfer 

2 of properties, private properties within a certain area. 

3 That's not the question you are talking about nov7. 

4 DR. BARD: No, sir. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: You are talking about purely pub- 

6 lie properties. 

7 DR. BARD: Public properties. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion of this 

9 question? If not -- Mrs. Bothe? 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I was just up with a query. In 

11 reading this provision that the General Assembly might enact: 

12 laws withdrawing specified powers from all counties, I 

13 gather that is something to compromise in the direction of 

14 Judge Adkins' measure, but I wonder if it isn't in conflict 

15 with Section 11.03, which precludes the General Assembly 

16 from passing laws which don't apply to all counties in a 

17 - class. 

18 MR. BROOKS: You still would have to do it by 

19 classification, if it doesn't apply to all counties. 

20 MRS. BOTHE: Suppose they wanted to pass a law 

21 to take powers away from all counties going into one region 



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1 but not necessarily are all part of one class? This could 

2 be a likelihood. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: They would have to do it by -- 

4 MRS. BOTHE: The two provisions would be in 

5 conflict. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Not necessarily. They would 

7 have to do it by having that region as a class or making 

8 the law applicable to all regions or counties V7ithin the 

9 class. 

10 MRS. BOTHE: I wonder if that's desirable? It 

11 might be that the General Assembly wants to take all the 

12 governing powers away from certain counties in a certain 

13 region, but not others, 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the concept that the 

15 Committee puts up, that the powers of local government are 

16 in the counties and it can't be taken away from the countie^ 

17 except by public general law. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: Applicable to all counties in the 

19 class? 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: And applicable alike to all re- 

21 gions in a class. 



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1 MR. BROOKS: And this alternative that you sug- 

2 gest is. the alternative which was presented in the Staff 

3 Tnemorandum at the Brown Estate which was voted on and de- 

4 feated, but that was the alternative you are discussing 

5 now, which would have permitted powers to be taken away ' 

6 from counties other than in the classification system and 

7 given to the counties in the regional government. 

8 MRS. BOTHE: I don't think we discussed it in 

9 this context, but I think in the case of setting up regions 

10 as opposed to other areas where there might be a uniform 

11 classification, that in that instance, I think the Legis- 

12 lature should be able to make particular withdrawals of 

13 power of counties in particular regions without reference 

14 to their classifications. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau? 

16 MR. MARTINEAU: I would just like to say I agree 

17 . with that. 1 was going to raise that problem when we got 

18 to 11.03(c). It seems to me that this necessarily has to 

19 be an exception to the section with reference to public 

20 local laws. Otherwise, you are going to be in a terrible 

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1 power over, say police authority, if you want to set up a 

2 regional government that's going to have police authority 

3 in Baltimore, in the Baltimore Metropolitan Area, I don't 

4 see how you can draft legislation affecting all of the 

5 counties in the classes -- all of the classes of counties 

6 which are going to be included in this area on any reasonab! 

7 basis, because if you want to do it in the Baltimore area, 

8 it doesn't mean you want to do it in the Washington area, 

.9 and yet you are bound to have counties that are going to be 

10 in the same classes. X think you've got to have an excep- 

11 tion here. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I think your question -- and 

13 this is the point that was the subject of the discussion 

14 at the earlier meeting. You are not depriving anybody from 

15 the pov7er to make such a law. You are sim.ply saying the 

16 General Assembly doesn't have the pov7er. The participating 

17 counties have it. And this is consistent with the whole 

18 concept presented by the Committee, that the General As- 

19 sembly does not have the power of local legislation except 

20 within the classifications of counties. 

21 This is, I think, precisely the question that 



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1 was raised by the Staff and discussed at the Brown Estate. 

2 One of the suggestions made was that if you did not have 

3 this restriction, you could permit the Legislature to de- 

4 feat the whole idea of the necessity for classification 

5 simply by creating a region. This is one of the objections 

6 I don't recall who made it, but somebody made the point 

7 at the time this was discussed. 

8 MRS. BOTHE: I recall the discussion now, Mr. 

9 Eney, but I still feel that there should be or there has to 

10 be an exception where a power is being taken from a county 

11 for the purpose of implementing regional government and I 

12 think that there is a distinction there between the concept 

13 the Committee is trying to advocate, which is that the 

14 General Assembly shall not pass local legislation. I think 

15 there v7ould have to be an exception or you are going to 

16 have the process of effective regional government vastly 

17 . hobbled. 

18 You are not going to be able to take the povjers 

19 existing from the counties, unless you do it to all the 

20 counties in the classification and, of course, there are 

21 going to be counties you don't want to do it. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Or unless the counties agree. 

2 .... MRS. BOTHE: No. The way I would understand 

3 this proposal, that the Legislature would be absolutely 

4 restricted from taking powers from one county that it 

5 doesn't take from all other counties in the classification, 

6 regardless of the purpose. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: But the participating counties 

8 could surrender those powers . 

9 MRS. BOTHE: But the purpose is to promote 

10 regional government or to enforce regional government. I 

11 think there should be an exception and only in that instance 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me get at it this way. I 

13 think the question was considered before. There is no 

14 reason why it can't be reconsidered, if you or Mr. 

15 Martineau vjant to make a motion or if the Commission V7ants 

16 to. Do you want to move that it be reconsidered? 

17 . MRS. BOTHE: Yes, but if it's a matter of recon- 

18 sideration, perhaps it ought to be moved under our discus- 

19 sion of 11.03, because that's where the amendment would go. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Let's wait until we 

21 come to -- 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: Before you leave that entirely, I 

2 would like to point out that now you are worried about what 
'3 the General Assembly will do rather than the General 

4 Assembly not doing. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette? 

6 DR. BURDETTE: This involves, in (b) , refers 

7 to the General Assembly withdrawing specified powers. Can 

8 they reinstate them? Suppose they created a regional goverp 

9 ment, vjithdraw powers from the counties and they decided 

10 on experience that one of them should not have been given 

11 to the regional government. Could they, under this, return 

12 it to the county? 

13 THE CHAIR^IAN: Mr. Clagett? 

14 MR. CLAGETT: I would say that the answer to thai 

15 would be yes, if it met V7ith qualification of a general lav;, 

16 DR. BURDETTE: Why not word it in some such way 

17 - MR. CLAGETT: And there would be no problem, of 

18 course, if it was done through the consenting power of the 

19 region or by consent of the region. 

20 DR. BURDETTE: That's perfectly clear, but would 

21 it not be V7ise, instead of saying withdraw, saying an act 



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]^ of the General Assembly with reference to the powers of all 

2 counties within or partly within a region? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It is intended, is it, Mr. 

4 Clagett, that the action of the General Assembly be a con- 

5 tinuing action or the right of action be continuing, that 

5 is, that the General Assembly could from time to time with- 

7 draw from counties and grant to regions or withdraw from 

g regions and give back to counties any of these powers? 
9 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, it is. 

10 THE CHAIR>mN: Then I would suggest it be re- 

11 phrased to carry out that purpose. 

12 MR. SAYRE: Now, I'm confused a little. This re- 

13 lates -- 

14 MRS. BOTHE: No. 

3^5 MR. SAYRE: It does not relate to your question? 

16 MRS. BOTHE: No. 

17 , MR. SAYRE: All right. 

13 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Isn't it the inherent power 

19 of any legislative body to repeal laws as well as to pass 

20 la^'s ? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think that quite answers 



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1 the question because this has to be read in connection with 

2 the other sections. I don't know what change, if any, is 

3 necessary. I'm simply trying at this point to get the in- 

4 tent of the Committee clear and then leave it to the Com- 

5 mittee on Style. Any further questions as to (b)? If not, 

6 we'll move on, retaining the right to come back to (b) , in 

7 connection with the consideration of 11.03, when we come to 

8 that point. 

9 Paragraph (c) . 

10 MR. CLAGETT: Subsection (c) carries out what 

11 the Commission directed the Committee to do and that is 

12 where it provided for the granting to intergovernmental 

13 authorities the pox<;er to impose and collect revenues and 

14 borrov; money, that it not have the pov7er to impose taxes, 

15 but merely to collect taxes. 

16 THE CHAIR>1AN: There was a difference in the 

17 -Other section, as I remember it. Didn't it say the power 

18 to collect taxes imposed by representative bodies? 

19 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, and I think we have that im- 

20 plicit here in this language. 

21 THE CHAIRI^AN: What troubles me is the fact that 



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the power to collect taxes may be deemed broad enough to 
include imposition of taxes, unless you say the power to 
collect taxes imposed by other representative governments. 

MR. CLAGETT: I v;ould have no objection to the 
addition of those words. That would clarify the intent of 
the Committee. I might also point out that here, too, it 
v/as the General Assembly or other representative govern- 
ments that could. direct the imposition and then give the 
intergovernmental authority the power to collect those 
taxes imposed by that representative government. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment as to (c)? 
Mr. Sayre? 

MR. SAYRE: Maybe this is a bit far out, but 
shouldn't we say other representative governments within 
the State? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

MR. CLAGETT: I don't think we have any other 
label than the Maryland Constitutional Convention Commissioyi. 
I think that's a little far out, but -- as hesaid himself. 



I don't think it's necessary, frankly. 
MR. SAYRE: All right. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

2 ■ DR. BARD: Have we provided here or do we seek 

3 not to provide specifically in terms of an executive offi- 

4 cial? 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure I follow you. 

6 DR. BARD: Now, we speak all along here about so- 

7 called legislative bodies for a regional government. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: No, we talk about governing 

9 bodies, but no legislative bodies in this section. 

10 DR. BARD: Therefore, there might be an elected 

11 executive official as well. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

13 DR. BARD: All right. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further comment as to Section 

15 11.02? If not, we move to consideration of 11.03, on Page 

16 12. 

17 • MR. CLAGETT: Section 11.03, powers of the 

18 counties, is substantially unchanged from the draft as con- 

19 tained in the Sixth Report and they are designated as 

20 Section 11.02, as approved by the Commission. 

21 One significant addition is the exclusion in 



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1 Subsection (a) of judicial power from the broad grant of 

2 powers to the county and that appears, a county may exercise 

3 any power other than judicial power. This, of course, is 

4 the key section to the whole local government article and 

5 goes on to further provide that the counties may exercise 

6 any power not specifically denied by general law, the home 

7 rule charter or the Constitution. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau? 

9 MR. MARTINEAU: Mr. Clagett, isn't the clause 

10 after, or by lav;, merely a definition of general public law 

11 and couldn't you merely say general public law? 

12 MR. CLAGETT: Well, you are the one I thought 

13 suggested that public general be stricken out and we say 

14 merely by law, because by public general law was in the 

15 fourth draft, or whatever draft it V7as . 

16 MR. MARTINEAU: The phrase after that m.eans 

17 " general public law. 

18 MR. GENTRY: And it's repeated in (c) . 

19 MR. 14ARTINEAU: This is merely a stylistic 

20 change, merely saying general public law. 

21 THE CHAIR21AN: My comment would be that I'm not 



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1 sure it would be clear that It be the law applicable to a 

2 class of counties and not all counties. 

3 MR. HA.RTINEAU: The definition of general public 

4 law is one applicable to a class. 

5 • DR. BURDETTE: Not the present. We're trying to 

6 make clear we're not talking about the present language. 

7 THE CHA1R14AN: Can we leave that to Style? 

8 MR. CLAGETT: I think this matter was already 

9 decided and what we've done here is conform with what was 

10 a decision of the Commission at an earlier date and it was 

11 revised from what you are suggesting adding to what is nov; 

12 there, as you are reading it. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan, did you have a ques- 

14 tion? 

15 MR. SCANLAN: I was wondering, just to save lan- 

16 guage, the phrase, judicial power. Judicial power is vested 

17 by the Constitution to the Judiciary and v7ouldn ' t be there 

18 if denied by any county and why do we have to say so? We 

19 didn't say so in the last paragraph and phrase and we just 

20 added a phrase that's superfluous. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: It vjas added because there was son 



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1 doubt and I was the one that expressed the doubt that it wa^ 

2 abundantly clear, that here you had a provision that said 

3 a county may exercise any power and in another one it 

4 stated it did not. 

5 MR. CLAGETT: One of my Committee members tells 

6 me the same as Mr. Martineau, Mr. Scanlan suggested to put 

7 It in. 

8 MRS. BOTHE: Dr. Winslow kindly supplied me with 

9 a change. I would therefore propose the section be amended 

10 the second clause, which now reads, By its charter or by 

11 law, which in its terms affects and is applicable to all 

12 counties or all counties of its class, and to which I would 

13 propose adding, Except as provided in Section 11.02, the 

14 effect being that the Legislature could then take away 

15 powers of a county government in order to create regional 

16 governments, but in no other case, and would not be 

17 - restricted to classification in that event. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I would oppose that, Mr. Chairman, 

19 in that I think -- 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second. Is there a second?? 

21 MR. SAYRE: Seconded. 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: This is an amendment which would 

2 follow, counties of its class, fourth line on Page 2. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Fifth line. 

4 MR. BOTHE: I'm reading from Page 2. 
6 MR. MARTINEAU: 11.03(a). 

6 MRS. BOTHE: 11.03(a) would be amended to add, 

7 Except as provided in Section 11.02. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

9 MR. CLAGETT: And you would still continue to 

10 include the phrase. And which has not been transferred to 

11 another civil division, in order that I understand the -- 

12 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, I better amend or 

13 change my motion and perhaps I'm still premature. Dr. 

14 VJinslow points out, and I believe he's correct, that this 

15 amendment should go in Section 11.03(c), rather than in (a) 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Well, let's pass it, 

17 then, until we come to (c). Any further question as to (a)? 

18 If not, 11.03(b). Let's go back, if we may, to 11.02(c). 

19 Mr. Case had mentioned a problem in connection with that 

20 section and I had forgotten to mention it when we considere<{i 

21 i it. ■ 



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MR. CASE: Actually, Mr. Chairman, I think it's 
already in (c), 11.02(c). The point that I want to bring 
to the attention of the Commission is the same point, but 
applicable to 11.03A. 

MR. CLAGETT: What point is that? I think I knox<; 
what it is, but -- 

MR, CASE: The point is simply this. This sec- 
tion gives the counties all povjers , with the exceptions 
noted, and this included, of course, the power to borrow 
money and impose taxes and I think the explanation says 
it's supposed to be plenary. 

Now, I have this question. The present Constitu- 
tion, Section 54, Article III, I think it is, provides cer- 
tain limitations on the power to borrow money. Those limi- 
tations are in substance that no county can lend its credit 
to any firm, person or corporation, much in the same way 
that the State's power to borrov; is hedged in this area. 

Now, you will recall that in our meeting at 
College Park, in'discussing the State's power to borrow 
money we eliminated the provisions relating to specifically 
the State could not lend its credit to any firm, person or 



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corporation and substituted in lieu thereof the safeguard 
that the State could only lend its credit for a public pur- 
pose. That was the Committee's report and the Commission 
went further than the Committee did to put a tightener on 
that particular provision, as I recall it, by requiring 
that where the credit of the State is going to be used or 
lent, that it had to be by law passed by a two- thirds 
majority of both houses. 

Now, 1 think that it is inconsistent and incon- 
gruous to provide that the counties could lend their credit 
to anybody for any reason, as this particular provision 
would indicate, and yet have these safeguards on the State 
and, if you will recall back, V7e discussed this v7hole area 
of the lending of credit of public agencies at that time 
and I don't think it's necessary to go into it, now. I 
think that so long as the Commission has made its judgment 
with reference to the safeguards of lending the credit of a 
public agency insofar as the State is concerned, that the 
same general safeguards ought to be applicable in the case 
of a county lendi.ng its credit. 

So, I v7ould like to, just to put this whole 



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1 thing in focus, I would like to move, Mr. Chairman, that 

2 11.03(a) be supplemented by a provision that would say that 
» no county shall lend its credit unless for a public purpose 

4 and by a law requiring a three-fifth's vote of the General 

5 Assembly. 

6 MR. GENTRY: The General Assembly? 
7^ MR. CASE: As I understand it, these are going 

8 to be powers that a general law -- in other words, as I 

9 visualize it, you are going to have one law saying vjhat 

10 you can do countyxi;ide, which v-yould be a public general law |- 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: No. The county has the power 

12 unless the Legislature says what it can't do. 

13 MR. CASE: I understand that, but it would un- 

14 doubtedly say -- this is a prohibitory thing I'm suggesting 

15 So, I would think that you would want --in other v7ords , it 

16 would say that the county couldn't by Constitutional mandate^ 

17 . lend its credit for any purpose, but then the exception 

18 would be, of course, unless it was a public purpose and 

19 then there would have to be a vote of two-thirds -- m.aybe 

20 this is a little confusing as I speak about it. I 'm a 

21 little confused myself, but what I'm trying to do, of 



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1 course, is to make the thing symetrical with the prohibitiors 

2 we put on the statement in the use of its credit. Maybe 
5 somebody has -- 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, the section that was adoptee 

5 by the Commission with reference to the State credit pro- 

6 vided first that the State should have the power to incur 

7 indebtedness for any public purpose in such manner and upon 

8 such terms and conditions as the General Assembly may pres- 

9 cribe. Then followed the detailed provisions. 

10 MR. CASE: That's right. Drop down. It's the 

11 last sentence. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: The last sentence provides the as- 

13 sets or credit of the State shall not in any manner be 

14 given or loaned to any individual, association or corpora- 

15 tion unless a public purpose vjill be served thereby and un- 

16 less authorized by an act of the General Assembly stating 

17 .such public purpose and limiting any loan or extension of 

18 State credit to a period not exceeding 25 years. 

19 MR. CASE: You haven't got the amendment in there 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: That is the amendment. 

21 MR. CASE: No. Then it was amended -- 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

MR. CASE: -- to require that there be a two- 
third's vote. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Three-fifth's. 

MR. CASE: Or whatever the percentage is. 

MR. BROOKS: Isn't this more in the nature of a 
provision for the charter of a county? 

MR. CLAGETT: A matter for for statute? Because 
here in the Constitution you are placing -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: Wait just a second. If I could 
say something to get it in prospective. Under the concept 
here, this is a matter, the matter of borrowing money or 
lending the credit of a county to be resolved either by a 
limitation imposed by the Legislature or lim.itation imposed 
by the county charter. As I understand Mr. Case's sugges- 
tion, it is that the Constitution ought to have at least 
two overriding limitations, that every charter or every 
general law would have to include. Is that essentially it 

MR. CASE: That's essentially it. 

THE CHAIR.>'iAN: And the two lim.itations would be 
that any power to incur indebtedness is for public purpose 



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2^ and, secondly, that the lending of the credit of the county 

2 be authorized by an extraordinary vote of whatever the 

» authorizing body would be. 

4 MR. CLAGETT: Is that the General Assembly or 

g the county legislative body? 

6 THE CHAIR14AN! Whatever the authorizing body 

17 would be. 

8 MR. CASE: Whatever the authorizing agency would 

9 be. 

10 MR, CLAGETT: I understand it. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN- To get that before us, Mr. Case, 

12 would you make a motion and I v7ould suggest that it not be 

13 an amendment of any of these existing subsections, but an 

14 additional subsection to 11.03. 

15 MR. CASE: I so move. 

16 DR. BARD: Seconded. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is that an additional 

18 subsection be added to 11.03 to provide that the county 

19 shall have the power to incur indebtedness only for a public 

20 purpose and that it could not lend assets or credit of the 

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1 purpose stated in an act passed by an extraordinary vote of 

2 the authorizing body. Is that correct? 

3 MR. CASE: That's it. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

5 DR. BARD: Seconded. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case, do you V7ant to speak to 

7 it any further? 

8 MR. CASE: No, I think the Commission understands 

9 my position. I'm suggesting this for two reasons. One, 

10 from time imimemorial , it has been true that the same general 

11 restrictions have been placed upon the county's power to 

12 borrow as has been placed upon the State's power to borrow, 

13 as found in Article III, Sections 34 and 54. So, this 

14 point is based on precedent. 

15 Secondly, I think it is based on good common 

16 sense because the credit of a county can be as effectively 

17 .destroyed by improvident management as the credit of the 

18 State and just for the same reason that we wanted these safe 

19 guards to go in the Constitution, even though we are setting 

20 up a very strong Legislature, still there are certain things 

21 that even that strong Legislature should not be allowed to 



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1 do by Constitutional prohibition. 

2 " So, in the case of counties, I think the same 
5 argument controls and perhaps controls to even a stronger 

4 degree because it's probable that the agencies in the 

5 counties which would be authorizing the issuance of debt willl 
5 not either have the expertise or perhaps the staff that the 

7 improved Legislature would have for the purpose of deter- 

8 mining the desirability of these loans. So, I think from 

9 every standpoint this is a desirable thing which vjill be 

10 helpful to the county's credit and the reverse would be 

11 deleterious to it. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

13 MR. CLAGETT: This is only a question of detail 

14 and not addressing myself to the merits of the motion. 

15 What is an extraordinary vote of the legislative council or 

16 of the county commissioners sonsisting of five county com- 

17 missioners? 

18 MR. CASE- Four, probably. Whatever their chartCjr 

19 says V7ould be a vote necessary to override executive veto. 

20 THE CHAIR14AN: Well, you see, in the county com- 

21 missioners form you wouldn't have that. I would assume it 



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would be three, if iCwere three-fifth's. In the three 




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county coumiissioners , you wouldn't have executive veto. 




3 


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4 


isn't it? You see, you have no mayor, so it's not com- 




5 


parable. It's one more than a majority. 




6 


MR. SAYRE: Yes, five. 




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MR. CASE: Five. 




8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sayre? 




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mean if the county council should submit this question to 




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referendum, that the referendum could not be regarded as 




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an extraordinary vote? 




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extraordinary vote? 




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MR. SAYRE: As a substitution. This could very 




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well be the means of a bond issue. 




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MR. CASE: Well, it could be. 




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MR. SAYRE: It just seems too fuzzy, that I have 




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problems . 




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the State. 






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1 MR. SAYRE: Except that we had to go to the 

2 Legislature every time before. 

3 MR. CASE: No, you don't. A charter county doesnft 

4 have to go to the Legislature. 

5 MR. SAYRE: Then this means -- 

6 MR. CASE: What it means is that the implementin 

7 legislation would have to be passed by an extra vote, what- 

8 ever that definition is. 

9 MR. SAYRE: Would not a referendum count? That's 

10 the question, what would constitute an extraordinary vote, 

11 and I hope a referendum would be? 

12 MR. CASE: There is only one county, if you 

13 count Baltimore City, there are tv7o, V7hich require a refere 

14 dum on bond issues and 1 don't think that it makes any dif- 

15 ference because I think that the important first step is 

16 the enactment of the lav? and I think that the delegation of 

17 , the credit should be safeguarded at that initial step, be- 

18 cause I'm afraid that -- of course, referendums on loans 

19 could go all over the lot, but sometimes a popular loan can 

20 still be a bad financial risk, as you well know. 

21 MR. SAYRE: Yes. Therefore, you have an extra 



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1 vote even submitted to referenduni. 

2 " MR, CASE: If a referendum were required by the 

3 charter of that particular county. 

4 MR. SAYRE: Well, they could either submit it or 

5 not submit it, according to the terms of their charter. 

6 MR. CASE: Most charters say they have to be sub- 

7 mitted or, if it doesn't say anything, they are not sub- 

8 mitted. 

9 MR. SAYRE: Would this also apply to regional 

10 governments? 

11 MR. CASE: I v7ould hope that it would. I would 

12 suggest -- 

13 MR. SAYRE: It would be inconsistent not to 

14 apply one place and -- 

15 MR. CASE: Yes. 1 think this is a very important 

16 thing, because the whole is no stronger than the sum of the 

17 "strength of its parts, and once you start chipping away at 

18 the level of the .region or the county, then you are really 

19 hurting the State. You are hurting everybody. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau? 

21 MR. MARTINEAU: It would seem to m? , although 



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1 I*m not certain about this, that the reason, of course, we 

2 have provisions such as that with reference to State bond 

3 issues in the Constitution is because that's the place you 

4 have to have it. There is no other place that can impose 

5 the restriction, without having it in the Constitution, but 

6 I don't see why that is necessary as to counties where the 

7 State Legislature by law applicable to all counties can im- 

8 pose such a restriction. 

9 We are putting in many restrictions here in the 

10 Constitution V7ith reference to the State Government that 

11 we're not putting in with reference to the political sub- 

12 divisions because there isn't any need to do it. The 

13 Legislature can impose these restrictions, and I wonder 

14 wouldn't it be just as much a safeguard to rely on the 

15 Legislature to pass a law putting restrictions on the use 

16 of the county borrowing power and we wouldn't have to put 

17 it in the Constitution? 

18 MR. CASE: I could answer that very simply. Ob- 

19 viously, if the general law is going to control or restrict 

20 the powers of the county, the ansv^er to your question is it 

21 would be, but the ansv;er to it is that it's very easy to get 



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1 the express powers changed if you want to get it changed 

2 and this will prevent a pressure group from getting express 

3 powers changed, 

* Now, I've had some experience with getting amend- 

5 ments to the current Express Powers Act and I know that the 
^ larger counties who are concerned can very easily accomplish 
''' this and I think that this is such an important thing, the 
° lending of the credit of a county, that it ought to be 
^ beyond the reach of political pressures that can be brought 
to bear in the Legislature. 

THE CHAIRMAN- Mr. Gentry? 

MR. GENTRY: If we are to make this exception 
^3 apply to both counties and regional governments, isn't it 
^^ possible right in the very section Mr. Eney was just 

^^ reading from to pick it up there and say neither a state 
^" nor any county nor any regional county? 

^'^ ■ MR. CASE: I v/ouldn't care how it's done, Jim, 

as long as -- 

MR. GENTRY: The other question I want to ask, 
with the other counties having this plenary power denied, 
would there be any chance that the county could pledge the 



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1 State's credit? Has that been excluded by -- 

2 •• MR. MARTINEAU: I don't think I would buy a bond 

3 issue based on that.. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: I don't think that's a very well- 

6 grounded fear. My God, you can scare yourself to death, 

7 but that doesn't necessarily mean you justify doing so. 

8 MR. CASE: But you are just as dead. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: You are just as dead, that's true, 

10 but at the same time I would say it's a little foreign to 

11 the field of politics as we're dealing with it here and 

12 political science. Let me give the Committee's thinking 

13 because v;e wrestled V7ith this at some length and we in- 

14 eluded consideration of the problem in our Third Report 

15 and the conclusion of the Committee V7as , just as Mr. 

16 Martineau has stated a little bit earlier, that contrary 

17 - to the situation v;ith reference to the General Assembly 

18 acting where there was no restraining power except through 

19 the Constitutional language, the counties acting here do 

20 have the restraining power of the General Assembly and if 

21 what you are proposing now is considered to be advisable. 



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1 it can be made a matter of statute by the General Assembly 

2 when it acts to withdraw the powers by general public law 

3 and I believe that, acting in that manner, notwithstanding 

4 the contrary point of view, gives a degree of flexibility 

5 to the situation which is a greater argument in its favor 

6 than the opposite, which is that it permits change. 

7 I think the change is more desirable than unde- 

8 sirable and the inflexibility of Constitutional language 

9 would require the Constitutional amendment to change it is 

10 more of an argument against than in favor. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Case: 

12 MR, CASE: I feel pretty strongly that there are 

13 certain times when it pays to be a little inflexible. There 

14 is nothing gained by being flexible just for the sake of 

15 saying you can go off in all directions at the same time 

16 and, when I come to this matter of credit and have the 

17 borrowing power of the counties, which is a very important 

18 ingredient to them, it just seems to me that the time to 

19 stand on strict principles is in the basic document. 

20 Nov;, this may be a conservative point of view 

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1 in dealing with people who rate bonds and people who pay 

2 money for them and the syndicates and so on, that they are 

3 looking for this and when they see this great area of 

4 flexibility, you get a minus mark. This is not an academic 

5 point. This is a practical, down to earth, dollars and 

6 cents thing I'm talking about, and I think that, very 

7 frankly, if the whole matter is left in the Express Powers 

8 Act, all right, that's fine. It can conceivably be con- 

9 trolled there with perfect degree of safety, except that 

10 it is alvjays subject to political m.aneuver and we're 

11 talking about credit here which is just about assacred a 

12 thing as the county has and I think it ought to be in the 

13 document. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'd like to say that the only 

15 thing with reference to a non-charter county is in the Ex- 

16 press Povjers Act. 

17 ■ MR. CASE: No, Section 54. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: That just says no county shall 

19 contract any debt, and so forth, unless authorized by an 

20 act of the General Assembly and there are no Constitutional 

21 limitations on it. 



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MR. CLAGETT: It's a statutory limitation. 
.. THE CHAIRMAN: That's in the Express Powers Act. 
My point is, there's a slight difference in that and what 
we're talking about. Under the present Constitution, as I 
understand, there are only three things as far as counties 
are concerned, Section 54, Article XI, so far as Baltimore 
City is concerned, and Section 7 of that article, which is 
quite detailed, and then the general provisions in Article 
XI(A)as to any charter county, which means simply it's 
governed by any statute in the charter. So, wouldn't we be 
adding something into this Constitution that is not nov; ther^? 

MR, CASE: Contract, that's true, because now not 
only do you have the Express Povjers Act, as far as counties 
are concerned, of course, every charter county or other 
county, there has to be a special act passed. 

THE CHAIPvl'1/vN: But there is nothing in the Con- 
stitution as to non-charter counties. 

MR. CASE: Except 54. 

THE CHAIRl-lAN: Which simply says you have to have 
an act of the General Assembly. 

MR. CASE: It says more than that. 



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1 MR. SAYRE: No County of this State shall con- 

2 tract any debt, or obligation, in the construction of any 

3 Railroad, Canal, or other Work of Internal Improvement, 

4 nor give, or loan its credit to, or in aid of any associatic 

5 or corporation, unless authorized by an Act of the General 

6 Assembly. 

7 MR. CASE: All right, but the point there is 

8 that you have to have an act and you will find that Section 

9 54 has been interpreted exactly the same way as 34 has, in 

10 what I'm talking about, namely -- and the Frostburg case 

11 says this, that the counties cannot lend their credit for 

12 private purposes. 

13 MR. SAYRE: Well, that's all right. 

14 MR. CASE: And that's all I'm saying and the 

15 Court of Appeals has expressly interpreted this section to 

16 so provide. The two sections came into the Constitution in 

17 1851. The two sections were identical in purpose. The 

18 county section was a little more detailed at first and some 

19 of the mish-mash has been taken out, but the same situation 

20 came up in Anne Arundel County, and I forget the name of the 

21 case, but in that case the same thing came up as came up in 



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1 Baltimore versus Gill, and in that case the Court of Appeals 

2 held that Section 54 prohibited the counties from lending 

3 their credit just as. Section 34 prohibited the State from 

4 ' lending its credit. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Dick, I don't think that's cor- 

6 rect. I think what the Court of Appeals said was that the 

7 county V7as prohibited by the act of the Legislature, not 

8 by Section 54. 

9 MR. CASE: No, it didn't either. Well, I haven' |: 

10 read the case for some time, but I'm pretty sure that it 

11 held that the same type of transaction, the Baltimore and 

12 Gill type of transaction vjas invalid. 

13 MR. MARTINEAU: Because it wasn't authorized by 

14 the Legislature, I think. 

15 THE CHAIRI'IAN: That's what I think was the de- 

16 cision. 

17 . MR. MARTINEAU: Is that the Perry Point Railroadf 

18 THE CKAIRMA]:^I: Drum Point Railroad. 

19 MR. MARTINEAU: Drum Point. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: No, there was an act of the 

21 Legislature, I believe. I'm pretty sure there was. Mrs. 



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Freedlander? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, I have two queS' 
tions. I'm not disagreeing V7ith the premise that Mr. Case 
makes, but I have two questions. If there is a court de- 
cision, does that not prevail and we would not need any 
other legislative provision? That would be my first ques- 
tion. 

My second question is how can v;e tell a charter 
county, because we V7ant all of these counties to have some 
instrument of government, vjhat decision should be made by 
extraordinary vote? Hox-; can vje direct them to this? Is 
this not the right of the charter makers? 

MR. CASE* Answering your questions in the order 
you proposed them, if the Constitution were to remain as it 
is, I wouldn't worry because you've got a provision and 
it's interpreted by a court decision and no county in this 
State v.'ould dare to -- I would say this -- certainly, I 
don't think any competent bond counsel would pass a bond 
issue where the money was going to be turned over to purely 
a private purpose, because of the wording of 54, but we're 
changing that now and I'm afraid it's sweeping that away 



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1 and I *^Tn merely trying to preserve V7hat we've got. 

2 •• THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I think this is a real de- 

3 parture from the existing Constitution. If we had the same 

4 setup as under the existing Constitution, where you had the 

5 necessity for either an act of the General Assembly or a 

6 general Express Powers Act, I would not be too m.uch con- 

7 cerned by the point that Mr. Case mentions, but I think 

8 that the fact that we now say all counties, which would mean 

9 a county which has not adopted a charter form of government 

10 would have the power, and there is no limitation in the 

11 Constitution as to its borrowing power, then, unless the 

12 Legislature adopts a general act limiting the pov;er of all 

13 counties in the area of borrowing money, the county would 

14 have unlimited power and this, I think, is a little dif- 

15 ferent from what we have at the present time and it gives 

16 me, at least, some concern. 

17 ' MRS. FREEDLANDER: Would you answer my second 

18 question, please, with regard to the extraordinary vote? 

19 Our right to tell -- 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I personally feel that the extra- 

21 ordinary vote ought to be whatever is provided in the 



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charter of the county, if you are going to give them home 
rule. 

MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I would say to that, 
that that situation, assuming that that situation could 
exist, could not exist more than four years and it seems to 
me -- 

THE CHAII^TAN: Why do you say that? 

MR. CLAGETT: Because after a four-year period, 
the non-charter counties would have a charter. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I see vhat you mean. 

MR. CLAGETT: And certainly it is to be contem- 
plated that any charter of a county, however it's adopted, 
will include some such restriction as v;e are envisaging 
here or will make some provision for it and I merely suggest 
that it would be a very real departure and mistake to now 
write into the Constitution a restriction upon a broad grant 
of power which we are giving for the purpose of vitalizing 
and stimulating a county government, and to now come along 
and start putting restrictions upon it would be a mistake. 

Now, with reference to a point of Mrs. 
Freedlander ' s , of course, we do tell the counties that in 



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their charters they must provide for amendment of those 
charters. I don't see any practical difficulty in saying 
here is another restriction v;hich you will have to write 
into your Constitution, but I really feel that the argument 
turns on whether or not we should do it, sitting here withir 
these four walls, or whether we should let the General 
Assembly take care of it, knowing that at the most it would 
only be a period of some four years. 

THE CRMRMAN: Mr. Hoff? 

MR. HOFF: We sat here within these four walls 
and m.ade the limitation upon the State's borrowing power. 
I can't for the life of me see how v;e can be consistent and 
grant to counties greater powers of borrowing than V7e have 
granted to the State. 

MR. CLAGETT: Well, I think I better add, as- 
suming nov7 that the Legislature, when it acts to withdraw, 
as it must immediately after the passage of a Constitution 
such as we are preparing here, when it acts to withdraw 
powers from the counties, certainly this area will come intb 
consideration at that time and you will recall that since, 
by the broad grant, the General Assem.bly will have to 



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V7ithdraw and in the process of withdrawal reclassify and 
redefine the relationship betvjeen the counties and the 
General Assembly, a very, very important area. It throws 
us back into the phase of a discussion of the Committee 
when we were trying to decide whether the Constitution 
should give to the counties the broad grant of power or 
whether we should do so by express powers and one of the 
strong arguments against the broad grant of power v;as the 
fact that hand in hand with the broad grant of power would 
be the imposition upon the General Assembly of the respon- 
sibility of redefining and clarifying the lines between it 
and the counties by general withdrawal power, because there 
vjould be m.any areas within vjhich the General Assembly would 
not want the counties to act. 

MR. HOFF: I must confess, I'm lost. I thought 
we were talking about simply imposing upon the counties the 
same limitation in borrowing that we have already decided 
to im.pose upon the State and, regardless of these grants 
of power or withdrawals of power, it seems to me to be con- 
sistent to have a similar imposition upon the counties as 
we have imposed upon the State Legislature. It's as simple 



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1 as that. 

2 •• THE CHAIRMAN: One slight correction. Not the 

3 same, but two of the limitations. There are many more 

4 limitations on the State. 

5 MR. HOFF: We're just talking about -- 

6 THE CHAIR^IAN! The two of them. Mr. Case, I am 

7 troubled by one thing that could possibly happen with 

8 reference to your suggestion and I wonder if you would con- 

9 sider a slight modification of your motion and that is a 

10 section that would authorize the charter of a county or the 

11 General Assembly by public general law to impose such 

12 limitations on county borrowing as might be deemed desirably, 

13 but not less than these tv;o things. 

14 In other words, I don't want to create the in- 

15 ference that there should be no other limitations than thest: 

16 two . 

17 . MR. CASE: This is certainly implicit in my 

18 amendment. That limitation is the motion, readily citable 

19 and an example of what you are talking about. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I sense that there may be a 

21 difference of opinion on the two points and I wonder if it 



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1 would be desirable to separate the two. Your motion as 

2 clarified was that it be an extra vote of the authorizing 

3 body, not the General Assembly. 

4 MR. CASE: That's right. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Say re? 

6 MR. SAYRE: I have one question. When we say 

7 extraordinary vote, could this vary from county to county, 

8 whatever that governing body determines? 

9 MR. CASE: That's right. 

10 MR. SAYRE: We don't require that now of our 

11 counties, do we? 

12 MR, CASE: Well, again, let me say that under 

13 the present Constitution, as interpreted by the Court of 

14 Appeals, a county can't do this. All we're talking about, 

15 and I think your question is a very good one because it 
15 leads back to the thing, the long, rambling statement Mr. 

17 Clagett made v;hich is that it's fine -- 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I want to point out it's ten 

19 minutes of five and we didn't get any coffee this time. 

20 MR. CASE: -- as far as an academic disposition 

21 of this general problem is concerned, but we're talking 



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1 about one very narrow thing here. We're not talking about 

2 broad grants of this or broad grants of that. We're 

3 talking about a very fundamental thing, the lending of 

4 credit for private purposes. 

5 Now, this cannot be done under the present Con- 

6 stitution. All I am saying is -- 

7 MR. SAYRE: I have no argument with that. 

8 MR. CASE: All I'm saying is we ought to put 

9 words in here that make sure that this is contingent -- 

10 MR. SCANLAN: Can we have the amendment restated 

11 These long, rambling discussions, pro and con -- 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Section 11.02 be amended by addin 

13 thereto another subsection providing in sukstance that the 

14 power of a county to borrow money or to give or lend its 

15 assets or credit be limited in such manner as may be pro- 
15 vided by public general law or by the charter of the county 

17 , but that in any event the county should not have the power 

18 to incur indebtedness except for a public purpose and that 

19 the assets or credit of the county should not be given or 

20 loaned to any individual, association or corporation unless 

21 a public purpose would be served thereby and unless 



II r 



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1 authorized by an act of the governing body stating such 

2 purpose and adopted by an extra vote of such authorizing 

3 body. 

* MR. HOFF: I thought it was understood that 

5 regional governments were to be included. 

6 MR. CASE: That's true. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, the motion as I stated it 

8 limited to counties, the same effect would be applied to 
^ regional governments. 

10 DR, BURDETTE: How about intergovernmental 

^^ authorities? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I would not think so. 

13 DR. BURDETTE: Their credit is private? 

14 MR. CASE: Only for the purpose they are created. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Haile? 

16 MR. HAILE: Mr. Chairman, I think to put this in 

17 the Constitution would be the kind of window dressing which 
IS would help the county sell bonds and , therefore, I would be 
1^ in favor of putting this in the Constitution. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

21 MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, the vote is not as to 



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where -- recalling Mr. Case's statement before that it was 
agreeable with him to put it in the finance article along 
with State restrictions and thinking that that's probably 
the best idea, we're not voting on where it's going. We're 
just voting on principle. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I would say we're voting on the 
principle, but I don't believe it's the best place for it, 
because we're talking here about the powers of counties and 
I think it would be desirable to include it here. 

MRS. BOTHE: Then we'd have to put another sec- 
tion in on regional governments and perhaps other parts . 
It makes it rather cumbersome. 

MR. CLAGETT: This is sure giving us problems. 

THE CHAIR>LAN! Let's leave that to be resolved 
by the Committee on Style, where it goes. 

MR. SAYRE: Could I ask for a further explanatioti 
Is there any reason why this should not be in the Constitu- 
tion, from someone I've not heard from.? I'm trying to be 
assured that you are right and I think you are. 

THE CHAIKMAN: Is there any further discussion? 

MR. CLAGETT: I may recognize that the m:an 



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j^ does not live that may be of greater authority than the inan 

2 who has just spoken. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Ready for the question? The 

4 question arises on the motion to provide either in Section 

5 11.03, or elsev;here, a separate provision applicable alike 
5 to regional governm.ents and to counties which provides that 
Tj the regional government or the county shall be subject to 

9 such restrictions as may be im.posed by a public general lav? 

9 or by its charter in the borrowing of money or the lending 

10 of its credit, but that, in any event, the regional govern- 

11 ment and the county's pov;er to borrow money be limited to 

12 borrowing money, incurring indebtedness for a public purpos 

13 and that the povjer to give or lend the assets or credit of 

14 the county or regional government to a private person, in- 

15 dividual or corporation be subject to the limitation that 
15 it can be authorized only by an extraordinary vote of the 

17 ■ authorizing body. 

18 Are you ready for the question? A vote aye is 

19 a vote in favor of including such a provision in the Con- 

20 stitution. All those in favor, please signify by a show of 

21 hands. Contrary? The motion is carred, 18 to 2. 



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DR. BURDETTE: Mr. Chairman, can I ask, some- 
what out of order, Mr. Case to look at 11.02(c), in which 
the General Assembly may authorize intergovemm.ental 
authorities to borrow m.oney? Shouldn't that be at least 
to borrow m.oney for a public purpose? We just didn't get 
that one covered in this discussion. 

MR. CLAGETT: Well, can the General Assem.bly 
authorize an intergovernmental authority to borrow money 
which would exceed the authority of the General Assembly? 

DR. BURDETTE: I don't know. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, conceivably. If we didn't 
have this limitation we just adopted, I suppose the General 
Assembly could authorize the county to borrow money without 
the provisions in Section 34. 

MR. CASE: Wouldn't it be sensible to include 
intergovernmental authorities with counties? I think vje 
should. I think Dr. Burdette is correct here, that 
authorities ought to be in with the counties. 

THE CMIRMAN: If they have the right to borrow 
money, it seems to me -- 

DR. BURDETTE: I thought so, in the first place. 



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1 Intergovernmental authorities should be put in this icotion 

2 just passed. 

3 MR. CASE: I v.^lc so move. 

4 >:^. >L'.?~:::ZAV: Seccnded. 

5 THE CHAIR>L\N! Any further discussion of that 
5 question? The questic:^ -vises cr. tr.e notion to include, 
7 subject to the sare limitations as accpted r : .: r jvious 
3 motion, intergovernmental authorities referred to in 11.02(<{). 
9 All those in favor, signify by s ^ aye. Contrary, no. 

10 The ayes have it. So ordered. Any further question vith 

11 reference to Section 11.03(a)? 

12 11.03(b). yr. Clagett? 

13 f5R. CLAGETT: Here we provide for classification 

14 and the classification is based upon population as deter- 

15 mined by the most recent U.S. Census or upcn other criteria 

16 provided by law. We, however, liirdt the nurber of classes 

17 to five and the nun^ber of counties irust be at least three it 

18 any one class, A classification icay be changed, but only 

19 one classification may be in effect at any one tirre, 

20 This, I might add, is similar to the section 

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1 that time without change, other than that the criteria must 

2 be one provided by law and we've done so here. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

4 DR. BARD: What troubles mie about upon other 
6 criteria, and then this matter, it shall be in effect at 

6 any one time, but the classification may be changed at any 

7 one time, it would be perfectly possible to change the 

8 specific criterion at any time you v;anted to and in this 

9 you v;ould ever be evolving classifications in terms of 

10 rationalization that might be required in order to fulfil 

11 an idea. 

12 It seems to me that if you stick to population -• 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard, this question has been 

14 discussed before and debated and resolved. So, you will 

15 have to move for a reconsideration, if you want to discuss 

16 it further. 

17 > DR. BARD: I realize that, I would like an ex- 

18 plana tion of, upon other criteria. Is there some kind of 

19 limitation there which the Committee had in mind? That's 

20 what troubles me. 

21 THE CHAII^IAN: The Committee had a limitation 



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and the Commission took it out. 

DR. BARD: Which one was it? I forgot. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Which Commission meeting? 

DR. BARD: What V7as the limitation? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Geography, as I remember it. 

MR. BROOKS: Well, this is varied, because of th^ 
same item -- this is tied in very closely with the item 
Mrs. Bothe was talking about and if it is to be recon- 
sidered, it has some bearing on this, in that the question 
of vjhether or not the alternative to the Legislature being 
able to take away powers from counties vested in their 
regional government should be separate from the classifica- 
tion system was considered last time, is also involved in 
this problem of what is the nature of the classification 
system. 

As the Commission ended up at the Brown Estate, 
the thought was, yes, for purposes of taking away powers 
from counties to vest them in any kind of regional govern- 
ment, the classification system would have to be utilized 
and, if it v;ere to be utilized, then it could not be based 
just on a population basis because the area to be covered 



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1 by regional government may not fit in one of the class if ica 

2 tion systems because, taking an example, it could be 

3 Baltimore and the surrounding counties, in which case 

^ Howard County may be one of those you want to include and 

5 the only way to give them powers that are taken away from 

6 the counties to cover it in the area may be through the 

7 classification system. 

8 Therefore, the criteria would have to be open, 

9 not restricted to population, to permit a regional con- 
10 glomeration as well as for other purposes, perhaps some 
H population criteria. 

12 Qn the other hand, if the method of taking away 

13 powers from counties is to be an exception with regard to 
14: the establishment of regional government, then there is no 

15 particular reason why the classification system in this 

16 section needs to be anything other than limited to 

17 , classification. So, it's very tied up with this same ques- 

18 tion, as to whether or not you are going to have this as 

19 the only method to give powers to regional governments that 

20 are taken away from counties or not. But if this is the 

21 only way to utilize the assemblage of counties into a 



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1 regional government, then it has to be broader than just 

2 classification. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, to ansv7er your 

4 question specifically, another criteria could simply be 

5 proximity of two counties or three counties. 

6 DR. BARD: Yes, I realize that. However, it 

7 would also be possible to vest within the entire regional 

8 government that was established the m.aximum powers of the 

9 particular county in the highest category, let us say. Am 

10 I making that clear? 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. If you had a previous 

12 classification. 

13 DR. BARD: Right. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: But then that classification -- 

15 well, no, it wouldn't die, necessarily. 

15 DR. BARD: I'm going to wait until Mrs. Bothe 

17 "makes her motion, but it still is true, I see this whole 

18 concept as a possibility of recreating the whole theory of 

19 local government. You just rehash time and time again your 

20 classifications in order to rationalize what you seek to do 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Except that the difficulty of 



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doing that operates as a brake line. 

MR. CLAGETT: And the difficulty is built in, in 
that it*s got to be at least three counties and there could 
be no more than five classifications at any one time. 

THE CHAIRMAN: No more than one classification 
at any one time. 

MR. CLAGETT: No more than one classification 
with five classes. 

DR. BARD: But it doesn't tell how long that may 
last, but one day. 

MR. BROOKS: But those laws enacted that deal 
with classification won't apply to whatever counties are 
taken out of the class, so that you destroy what you did 
the day before and that's the brake on the whole system. 

MR. CLAGETT: I want to point out that by this 
dual approach you do gi-ve a degree of flexibility to the 
General Assembly which you would otherwise be denying it. 

DR. BARD: I'd like, as Mr. Case has said, both 
flexibility and dependability. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions as to 



Paragraph B? 



(There was a short recess.) 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Say re? 

MR. SAYRE: My question, in regard to 11.03(b) 
relates to Mrs. Bothe's previous amendment. Is it not 
conceivable that a regional government could consist of 
two counties? That's my first question. 

THE CHAIRI^N: It could be, yes, certainly. 

MR. SAYRE: And I could see this is quite 
feasible in at least one area. 

THE CHAIRMAN: That's right. 

MR. SAYRE: Therefore, the General Assembly 
could enact, for that reason, apart from this provision 
in (b); is that correct? 

THE CHAIRMAN: V7hat do you mean when you say 
could enact? You mean local laws? 

MR. SAYRE: Well, regional laws. Something 
that would be delegating pov7ers to that body or with- 
drawing . 

THE CHAIRMAN: It could grant and withdraw 
powers, but it wouldn't have the power of local legisla- 
tion for that region, any m.ore than it would have for the 
county . 



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1 MR. BROOKS: It could grant, but not withdraw. 

2 .. THE CHAIRMAN: It could grant today and take 

3 away tomorrow. 

4 MR. BROOKS: But it's the withdrawal as 

5 separate from the granting that is important. 

6 MR. SAYRE: I just wondered if there were any 

7 inconsistencies with the three county requirement here. 

8 THE CFIAIRMAN: As I understand it, the v/hole 

9 concept of this thing, the creation of a region is not 

10 dependent upon the classification of counties. A classi- 

11 fication of counties is necessary to enact something less 

12 that a State-i^ide law by the Legislature. 

13 MR. SAYRE: That answers my question. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

15 MR. SCANLAN: Dr. Bard has expressed some 

16 concern about the phrase, or upon other criteria provided 

17 > by law. I assume that the phrase still means reasonable 

18 criteria. Our geographic areas -~ classifications such 

19 as bordering the Chesapeake might be reasonable, but the 

20 classifications of tv7o counties that had two vov7els in 

21 its name would be unreasonable and would be limited by 



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Section 4, and would be further limited by the equal 






2 


protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. I assume 






3 


this is implied. 






4 


MR. BROOKS: For practicality, the whole 






6 


situation probably is an overriding check on the whole 






6 


system. 






7 


MR. SCANLAN: Of course. 






8 


THE CHi\IRM/^.N: The only purpose of classifi- 




• 


9 


cation is to have something less than a State-wide law. 






10 


Now, it doesn't make sense to have a classification to 






11 


carry out that purpose and if by creating a purely 






12 


arbitrary classification you have tied your hands, then 






13 


the whole thing is going to fail. Dr. Jenkins? 


\i 




14 


DR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I really must 


1 




15 


trust the General Assembly. They may have a classifica- 






16 


t ion based on average income in order to get at the 






17 


- welfare situation in the major cities. This would be a 






18 


reasonable classification, but I think we have to trust 






19 


the General Assembly on this, although there are members 






20 


of the General Assembly who would propose something such 






21 


as this. 








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1 THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me the overriding 

2 provision or effect of the provision is you can only have 

3 one classification at one time. Therefore, if the 

4 Legislature classifies counties to accomplish some very 

5 narrow purpose, it has therefore tied the hands in classi- 

6 fyii^g counties for accomplishing a broad purpose. Any 

7 further question as to 11.03(b)? 

8 11.03(c), Mr. Clagett. I'm sorry, Mr. Case. 

9 MR. CASE: Mr. Chairman, I just throw this out. 

10 The five -- well, maybe I'm wrong. All right, I think I 

11 understand it now. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Section (c), Mr. Clagett. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: Subsection (c) says what the 

14 Commission told us to say, this is a public general law, 

15 that the General Assembly may act only by public general 

16 law, which is further defined as one in terms and effects, 

17 - applying without exception to all counties or to all 

18 counties in a class and no county shall be exempt. 

19 That, I think, carries out the intention of 

20 the Commission when it last considered this at the Brown 

21 Estate meeting. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Hoff? 

MR. HOFF: For purposes of clarification and 
consistency, after the words, applicable to, in the last 
line, should not the words, all counties or to all counties 
in its class be inserted? 

THE CHAIRMN: Yes. 

DR. BURDETTE: You want to change a to it? 

MR. CLAGETT: I have no objection to that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection to the change in 
the last line of (c) , after the words applicable to, insert: 
the words, all counties or to all? Any further questions? 

MRS. BOTHE: I was going to put that amendment 
in, but before I do, I was wondering if the General 
Assembly wanted to pass legislation which applied to a 
region, V7ould this language agree, providing to a region 
or any one classification? 

MR. BROOKS: It v/ould preclude it unless they 
were in the same classification and then the classifica- 
tion system V70uld permit it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Or unless it were a lav? granting 
powers. 



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MRS. BOTHE: I was wondering if I should expand 
my motion, but I will present it as I was going to. It 
would be the General Assembly may enact only public 
general laws which shall in their terms and in their 
direction apply without exception to all counties or to 
all counties in a class, to which I would suggest the 
following words be added, with the exception of the with- 
drawal of county poxv'ers provided for in Section 11.02(b). 

MR. CLAGETT: What exactly do you mean? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

MR.MARTINEAU: Second it. 

MRS. BOTHE: What I mean -- the language may 
be imperfect; it must be. V7hat I mean is where the 
Legislature wants to withdrav; county powers, which it, 
of course, must do by law and make that withdrawal appli- 
cable to counties V7hich are not in the same classification 
or to counties in the same classification, but not to all 
of them, that it could do so for the purpose of implement- 
ing the regional government. It would be an exception. 

MR. CLAGETT: This comes under the section 
dealing with powers of counties. 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: I don't see where it does, 

2 Mr. Cl.agett. Here it is in conflict, I believe, with 

3 11.02(b), because I think what you are contemplating 

4 there is that the Legislature could enact laws which 

5 would withdraw powers from particular counties which are 

6 to be included in a region, but these counties might not 

7 be all in the -- they might be in a classification with 

8 counties v^here powers would not or should not be V7ith- 

9 drawn and the only point of this is that it would enable 

10 the Legislature to take powers away for this one purpose 

11 and not to observe the classification in doing it. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: Referring to that 11.01, sub- 

13 section (b), vjhere we provide that the General Assembly 

14 may provide by lav7; it doesn't say by general public law. 

15 XL says, may provide by law for multiple county civil 

16 divisions. 

17 , MRS. BOTHE: It still doesn't provide that they 

18 may take power away from counties, which is provided for 

19 in 11.03. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: May I ask a question for clari- 

21 fication, Mrs. Bothe? As I understand the language you 



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1 are now proposing for 11.02(c), you intend to broaden 

2 t his power of the General Assembly only to the extent of 

3 saying that it could withdraw pov/ers from counties com- 

4 prising a region, without regard to the classification 

5 system? 

6 MRS. BOTHE: Right. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: In other words, Mr. Clagett, 

8 that if the General Assembly, under Section 11.02(b), 

9 withdrav7s from the component counties certain powers and 

10 grants them to a region, that it is not subject to the 

11 classification requirements of 11.03(c). 

12 To use a specific example, if you had five 

13 classes of counties and you created a region of Baltimore 

14 City and Baltimore County, which would not be a classifi- 

15 cation, the Legislature under this amendment could with- 

16 drav7 povrers from Baltimore City and Baltimore County and 

17 grant them to that region. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: And once it has granted them to 

19 that region, then, of course, the region would exercise 

20 those powers subject to the same power of withdrawal and 

21 you've got the General Assembly dealing in the local 



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1 affairs of that region. 

2 '• THE CHAIRMAN: Only to the extent of granting 

3 or withdrawing the powers or transferring, really, the 

4 powers from county to region or back from region to 

5 county. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: Would it be subject to that 

7 restriction? 

8 MRS..BOTHE: Yes. 

9 THE CHAIRMA.N: It is intended that it be. 

10 I'm not sure this particular language would be sufficient, 

11 but that is the intent. 

12 MR. BROOKS: On this, some of you may still 

13 have the staff memorandum that was submitted on this 

14 question at the Brown Estate. I don't have a copy here 

15 myself, but this was the problem addressed to and I thought: 

16 not only this was a serious question from the standpoint 

17 ' that if you permit the General Assembly to withdraw powers 

18 from the counties, exclusive of the classification system, 

19 which is the proposal in that staff memorandum. Then it 

20 is suggested that accompanying that should be a restrictiori 

21 that such pov7ers that are so withdrawn and vested in a 



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1 regional government should then only be povzers which 

2 could be returned to the counties if, for any reason, the 

3 General Assembly withdrew them from the regional govern- 
^ ments. Otherwise -- 

5 DR. BURDETTE: We got that in this afternoon. 

6 MR. BROOKS: Pardon? 

7 DR. BURDETTE: We got that in this afternoon. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: We got the intent in, not the 

9 language. 

10 DR. BURDETTE: That's right. It was referred 

1^ to the Committee on Style and put in 11.02(b). 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think, Dr. Burdette, 

13 that the previous action with respect to (b) goes quite 
14: as far as the point that Mr. Brooks was now making. The 

15 action previously with respect to (b) was simply that the 

16 power v;ould be withdrawn from the county and granted to 

17 ^ the region or withdrawn from the region and go back to the 

18 County. Mr. Brooks is making the point, I think, that it 

19 could only go back to the county. 

20 MR. BROOKS: With a restriction it could only 

21 go back to the county if the General Assembly decided to 



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1 withdraw it from the region, in order not to open this 

2 g^te, to take away, and to complete the classification 

3 restriction. 

4 In other words, the General Assembly could 

5 take whatever powers it wanted to exercise and vest them 

6 in a regional government and then withdraw it and vest it 

7 in the powers they have themselves. As I mentioned a 

8 while ago, also .a part of this over-all question is 

9 whether or not the classification system is restricted 

10 to the population criterion or is open-ended. I mentioned 

11 why it has to be open-ended as it is stated now. 

12 On the other hand, if this other approach is 

13 adopted, then there is a lot of reason why it should not 

14 be open-ended and that is that if you permit a classifi- 

15 cation system under this alternative vjhich can be organizec' 

16 any way, the General Assembly could very readily organize 

17 ^ a classification system that completely parallels whatever 

18 kind of regional government structure that is established. 

19 For instance, say five regions are established 

20 and we permit under the classification system as many as 

21 five classes, so the General Assembly therefore could 



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establish five classes under a classification system that 
completes the parallel with the regional structure. As a 
result, the General Assembly could enact legislation for 
any government, regardless of the classification. 

In other words, you have left the door complete]|.y 
open, unless you consider both of these at the same time, 
for the General Assembly to legislate for the regions and 
you would have no so-called home rule for the regional 
governments. 

THE CHAIRMN: So that there would be no mis- 
understanding about it, let me state my understanding, 
that the action previously taken with respect to Section 
11.02(b), and V7hat is contemplated with the suggested 
motion making the change to 11.03(c) is that the General 
Assembly shall have the power to transfer to a region from 
the counties comprising the region any of the powers of 
the counties and transfer those powers back from the 

nty 
om 

,9 



' 18 


region to 


the counties from vzhich it came. 


19 




It could not transfer the powers from county 


20 


to region 


and then from region to state. It goes from 


21 


county to 


region or back from region to county. Mr.Sayre' 




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1 MR. SAYRE: Does this, if I understand you 

2 correctly, this would mean if you have a rapid transit 

3 compact between two regional governments, that the state 
4r has raised up from the county to the regional government, 

5 it could not take over the state function as a whole 

6 state function itself? Is that what you're saying? 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I don't think that is what 

8 I am saying. It could take ovc ".nything as a state 

9 function. What we are talking bout is the pov7er to 

10 take over local legislation, either local for a county 

11 or local for a region. 

12 MR. BROOKS: By general law, it can make any 

13 of these things a state function. There is no restriction 

14 on that. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: But it would have to be a general 

16 lav; only. 

17 MR. BROOKS: That's right. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette? 

19 DR. BURDETTE: Wouldn't it be useful to get 

20 at some stage, to make John Brooks' point, some such clause 

21 in the Constitution, but in no case shall the Legislature 



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1 pass a law applicable to a region, as such. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: The purpose of my stating the 

3 understanding with respect to these two motions was so 

4 that the Committee on Style could put it in appropriate 

5 language. 

6 DR. BURDETTE: I understand that. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Neither the mover of this motion 

8 nor the mover of the previous motion is trying to phrase 

9 the precise language to be used. 

10 DR. BURDETTE: I am not trying to phrase the 

11 language, but I'm not sure that what we've been talking 

12 about so far touches John Brooks' point. 

13 THE CHAIR>L4N: I think it does. We're talking 

14 about a transfer of powers from county to region and back 

15 from region to county. It can move no other V7ay. 

16 MRS. FREEDMNDER: Mrs. Bothe added that to 

17 her motion. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: I want to be clear on one other 

20 thing. What direct relationship would this have or effect 

21 on 11.03(a), where the broad grant is, to the counties, not 



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denied, as they are specified and vjhich has not been 




2 


transferred to another civil division? 




3 


MRS. BOTHE: This is in conflict with the 




4 


principle. The only way it can be done is where there 




5 


is a contemplated transfer to a region. 




6 


MR. CLAGETT: So it would tie in rather than 




7 


be restrictive. 




8 


MR. BROOKS: It wouldn't conflict. 


III 


9 


MRS. SAYRE: It's restrictive. 


1 

n 


10 


MRS. BOTHE: The only way where actually it 




11 


would apply is where a county's pov7er would be transferred 


in 


12 


to a region. So, 11.03 wouldn't be affected. 


^'1 
II 

M 


13 


MR. CLAGETT: I recognize my own inabilities 




14 


better than anyone else, I hope. Would you read that 


r 


15 


once again, so I can digest it? 




16 


THE CHAIRKAN: The language? The language. 




17 


I'm afraid, is misleading, in the light of -- 




18 


MR. CLAGETT: I don't mean to say the language 




19 


is that misleading. I have difficulty understanding it. 




20 


THE CHAIRMAN: The suggested language is at the 




21 


end of the first sentence of 11.03(c). Before the period 






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1 you would add the phrase, with the exception of the with- 

2 drawal of county powers provided for in Section 11.02(b). 

3 The intent of the motion is that the section be amended 

4 and also that 11.02(b) be amended so as to provide the 

5 full powers transferred from a county to a region and 

6 can only be transferred back to the applicable counties. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: I don't think there is any 

8 trouble with that. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions? The 

10 motion arises on the question to amend 11.03(c) at the 

11 end of the first sentence, to add the provision substan- 

12 tially in the words, with the exception of the V7ithdrawal 

13 of county powers provided for in Section 11.02(b), but to 

14 so amend both 11.03(c) and 11.02(b), to make it clear that 

15 powers transferred from the county to a region can be 

16 { withdrawn from the region and transferred back again only 

17 to the component counties. 

18 A vote aye is a vote in favor of the motion. 

19 All in favor please signify by saying aye. Contrary, no. 

20 The ayes have it. So ordered. Any further discussion 

21 of 11.03(c)? 



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DR. BARD: Mr. Chairman, will Mr. Brooks please 
go back to the point he made with respect to the fact that 
perhaps it can be based upon the population alone? 

THE CHAIRMAN: No, the other way around, now. 

DR. BARD: Is it? The other way around? 
I wasn't clear. 

MR. BROOKS: Now, the classification is 
irrelevant to that part of this document which permits 
the establishment of regional governments. It is not 
necessary for any stage of the activation or the estab- 
lishment or creation of regions or regional governments 
and for that reason it is no longer necessary, as far as 
that part of the document is concerned, for the criteria 
of the establishment of classes to be anything more than 
population. 

DR. BURDETTE: That is what you are advocating? 

MR. BROOKS: I say it is not necessary that it 
be any more than that. It still could be, but it is not 



necessary 



DR. BURDETTE: And it is as we have the 



language now. 



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1 MR. BROOKS: Yes. 

2 .... THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martineau? 
5 MR. MARTINEAU: Just to clarify my own thinking, 
^ is it correct that the effect of 11.03(c) implies an 
5 exception for the specific grants of pov7er to the General 
^ Assembly stated in, say Section 11.01, V7ith respect to 
"^ the creation, incorporation, changing, merging, dissolutior 
° and the alteration of boundaries? As I understand it, the 
^ General Assembly could pass a law changing the boundaries 

of Baltimore County and Baltimore City and that this, of 
course, would not be a general public lav; by its very 
terms. 
l'^ THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 

1^ MR. MARTINEAU: So that there is an implied 

^^ exception in 11.03(c), that they can adopt any general 
^^ public law and any other law specifically authorized by 
^' . the Constitution. 
19 THE CHAIRMAN: That is in effect what it means, 



10 



19 
20 



yes . 

MR. MARTINEAU: Is there any necessity to say 



that, because we've already made an exception with respect 

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to 11.02, and I wonder if we shouldn't make it a general 




2 


exception covering all the specific grants -- 




3 


THE CHAIR>LA.N: What you are saying is that 




4 


except as provided in 11.01 and 11.02, the General Asserabl; 


r 


5 


may enact a general public law. 




6 


MR. MARTINEAU: Except as in this Constitution ^ 




7 


so as not to create any confusion as to the limitation 




8 


here and any specific grant of power, whether it's 11.01 




9 


or 11.02, or some place else. 




10 


THE CHAIRMAN: Then I think we ought to have 


1 


11 


it limited somewhat to except as specifically authorized 




12 


in any other part of the Constitution. 




13 


MR. MARTINEAU; Yes, I think so. 


il 

9 


14 


THE CHAIR>L\N: Any objection? 




15 


MR. CLAGETT: No. Would you include that in 




16 


this very same Subsection (c)? 




17 


THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 




18 


MR. CLAGETT: And it would be that the General 




19 


Assembly may enact only public general laws, except as 




20 


otherwise herein provided. 




21 


THE CHAIRMAN: You start off (c), except as 






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3 



1 otherwise specifically authorized in this Constitution, 

2 the General Assembly may enact. 

DR. WINSLOW: That would take care of both 

4 situations. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions as to (c) 
5 Let's move on to 11.04. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: In 11.04, we're dealing with 

9 the structure of county governments and we provide in 

9 Subsection (a) that the General Assembly shall provide 

10 t)y law for methods and procedures by V7hich the governing 

11 bodies of the counties or the voters of a non-charter 

12 county by petition may enact an instrument of government 

13 subject to referendum, and the General Assembly shall 

14 provide by lav7 for an instrument of government for all 

15 non-charter counties, if they have failed to enact one 

15 for themselves, by January 1st, of the fourth year follov/ 

17 ing the effective date of this Constitution. 

18 We thus provide for the degree of flexibility 

19 for the county to adopt a charter or other instrument of 

20 government and V7e can think of no other instrument of 

21 government that v7ouldn't be a charter, but we have given 



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1 a palatableness, insofar as the use of this word is 

2 concerned, rather than by the use of the word charter, 

3 by the action of its own governing body or by a petition 

4 of the majority of the voters in that county. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Burdette? 

6 DR. BURDETTE: I have two questions. I should 

7 like to read this Section (a) as if there were in the 

8 second line a comma after governing body and in the third 

9 line a comma after petition, so that it doesn't say the 

10 governing body has to get a petition and, so far as I 

11 know, that is the intent of the Committee, and I have 

12 another question -- 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: I think this is the intent, 

14 is it not, Mr. Clagett? 

15 MR. CLAGETT: It is the intent. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Comma after body and a comma 

17 after petition. 

18 DR. BURDETTE: That makes it clearer. The other 

19 question I have is more a matter of substance. I wonder 

20 why we couldn't allow the General Assembly to provide for 

21 more than one instrument of government or optional 



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1 instruments -- I'm not phrasing this, I'm just giving 

2 the intention -- as we do now with regard to -- we leave 

3 some option to municipalities. Can this be strait-jackete 

4 by the General Assembly? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Does this strait-jacket the 

6 General Assembly, if we provide methods and procedures 

7 and those methods and procedures can include optional 

8 plans? 

9 DR. BURDETTE: I'm not so sure they can after 

10 four years. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: After four years, they won't 

12 have to. 

13 DR. BURDETTE: I'm not even sure. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: Because then it will have become 

15 effected and all counties will have an instrument of 

16 government. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you're following 

18 Dr. Burdette's point, Mr. Clagett. What he is asking is 

19 whether after four years, or at the end of four years, the 

20 Legislature could not have provided several forms of 

21 instruments of government that non-charter counties V7ould 



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1 fall into. I think the answer to it is that you would 

2 have to provide, if you did that, some mechanics to the 

3 county to adopt one or another. 

4 MR. CLAGETT: Then there would be another delay 

5 for a two-year period, at least -- another four-year perio(f. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: The concept Dr. Burdette makes 

7 is that this is automatic and that any non-charter county 

8 that hasn't acted within a four-year period -- 

9 DR. BURDETTE: And (c) arranges it that the 

10 county could proceed to change that legislative body by 

11 its process of amendments. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: And it is protected, so far as 

13 the county is concerned. 

14 DR. BURDETTE: All right. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further questions as to (a)? 

16 Mr. Martineau? 

17 MR. MARTINEAU: I'm afraid this is a question 

18 just brought about by the last amendment which I proposed. 

19 We say here, shall provide by law for methods and proce- 

20 dures by which the governing body -- I don't know that 

21 this would mean they could adopt a separate procedure for 



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1 each individual county and, because of the last amendment 

2 that we just adopted, are we now forced into drawing a 

3 distinction between public general law or specifying 

4 public general law when we mean that and stating by law, 

5 when we don't mean that? I would think, in view of the 

6 amendment we just adopted, the General Assembly in this 

7 section as it now reads could adopt a different procedure 

8 for each individual county, V7hich I think v7ould be importaijit . j 

9 THE CHAIRMAN; It seems to me that earlier, 

10 and I'm not sure V7hich meeting it was, a similar question 

11 arose and I thought we had decided that we would use the 

12 phrase public general law when V7e meant that. I'm not 

13 clear about that. Does anybody have a different recoi- 
ls lection? Certainly, there is no harm in doing it here, 

15 is there, Mr. Clagett? 

16 MR. CI/iGETT: No, there would be no harm. 

17 ' I don't think it's necessary, frankly, because I think 

18 you're dealing with counties and you've got the restrictiori 

19 in 11.03(c). 

20 THE CHAIR>LAN: But his trouble is with the 

21 amendment he made with respect to 11.03(c), maybe it would 



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1 provide the loophole -- 

2 ,. MR. CLAGETT: Except as herein provided. 

3 I think maybs we better put in general public law. 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection? 

5 MR. BROOKS: Where we say governing body in 

6 this section, do we mean legislating body again in con- 

7 formity with prior sections? 

8 MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 

9 DR. BURDETTE: You want to put in public genera 

10 law. - 

11 MR. CLAGETT: Here again, I think we are 

12 including here the acts of both the executive and the 

13 legislative and by governing body we say that in the sense 

14 of meaning both the legislative and executive, and V7e don't: 

15 say legislative body, as we did above. Therefore, it 

16 would include both, similar to the present Article XI(a). 

17 MR. HAILE: Couldn't we put governmental bodies ^ 

18 which includes the singular and non-charter counties which 

19 also includes the singular? 

20 MR. CLAGETT: I don't see any objection to that 

21 That's a matter of style. 



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1 DR. BURDETTE: It seems to me, as I read it 

2 now, it would also be wise to say, and procedures by 

3 which either the governing body or the voters, so that 

4 it doesn't leave -- because our intent is to allow either 

5 the governing body or the voters to generate this and 

6 either way you read it, the Legislature could take the 

7 position that they have a choice of fixing upon the 

8 governing body or fixing upon the voters as the only 

9 method, while V7e intended that either method must be 

10 followed. 

11 MR. BROOKS: You accomplished that with your 

12 commas, didn't you? 

13 DR. BURDETTE: No, I put the commas in, but I 

14 realize that simply makes that an alternative. The first 

15 one meant either one had to do it by petition and the 

16 other m.ade an alternative. If you take the commas out 

17 , and say by which either the governing bodies or the voters 

18 of a county -- 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the point is vjell taken. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: I would agree with it. I think 

21 it makes it clear without any question. So, after the 



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1 word body strike the comma and after the word petition. 

2 . ,., THE CHAIRMAN: No, you don't take the comma 

3 out. 

4 MR. CLAGETT: Either or certainly doesn't need 

5 commas. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 

7 MR. CLAGETT: And you take the comma after the 

8 word petition out in line 3. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I disagree. I think if you take 

10 the commas out, you are still left with the same problem 

11 that Dr. Burdette first mentioned, and that is the govern- 

12 ing body v7ould have to act by petition. You don't mean 

13 that. You mean either the governing body or the voters 

14 of a non-charter county by petition. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: Let's put them in, if there's 

16 any question. 

17 ^ MR. MARTINEAU: Why not say the county by 

18 public local law? 

19 THE CHAIRIIAN: I would prefer that, or the 

20 voters of non-charter county by petition. 

21 MRS. BOTHE: Will somebody read the whole 



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1 sentence? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: It will read now, the General 

3 Assembly shall provide by public general law for methods 

4 and -- 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: You don't need the for. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: By general public law methods 

7 and procedures by which either the governing body or the 

8 voters of a non-charter county by petition may enact an 

9 instrument of government subject to ratification, and no 

10 more commas in there. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't you want, in addition to 

12 the word enact, don't you want the word alter or change; 

13 may enact or change? 

14 MR. CLAGETT: We provide for an amendment down 

15 here in Subsection (c) . I don't think it will be necessar^ 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Now, in the next 

17 sentence, the General Assembly shall provide by law -- 

18 here again, you mean public general law. You don't need 

19 the word for. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: Let's put general law. 

21 DR. BURDETTE: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me the 



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1 word for does leave the Legislature more alternatives. 

2 It can either write the law or prescribe the means that 

3 somebody else -- 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: The whole point here is that 

5 the Legislature shall write it and it is self-operative, 

6 if the county doesn't do it. Any further questions? 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: I have two questions with 

8 relation to the last sentence. First of all, is it per- 

9 fectly clear that a county which has enacted a provision 

10 of government pursuant to the provisions in Paragraph 1 

11 is a charter county? It isn't clear to me. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: I lost part of what you said. 

13 Pursuant to the provisions of what? 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: If a county at the date of the 

15 adoption of this Constitution does not have a charter 

16 form of government, thereafter adopts what this document 

17 calls an instrument of government, is it then a charter 

18 county? If so, why is it? 

19 MR. CLAGETT: I would ansv/er that in the 

in 

20 affirmative, in that/any instrument of government, there 

21 would be a Constitution or there would be a charter and 



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1 there is no difference between Constitution and charter. 

2 .. MR. HOFF: What would you have done with the 

3 code county? 

4 MR. CLAGETT: That would be different. That 

5 would be a code. 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: That raises my point. You 

7 provide that the instrument that the General Assembly 

8 shall adopt shall become effective for all non-charter 

9 counties. I think this is sort of a confusion and I think 

10 that the word non-charter ought to be made more specific, 

11 because if you have a code county, for example, you don't 

12 want to have the instrument of government replace the 

13 code county's provision of government. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm glad you made that point 

15 because I thought that is precisely what the Committee 

16 intended. I thought V7hat was intended here was within 

17 , the four years any county could adopt a charter form of 

18 government. If it did not, then all remaining counties 

19 which did not adopt a charter form automatically took 

20 whatever form of government the Legislature provided, 

21 which might be County Commissioners or might be anything. 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: You are saying that the instru- 

2 ment of government provided for here which can be volun- 

3 tarily adopted by the end of the four years is a charter. 

4 That was really the source of my question. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It could be, but isn't necessari 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: And if they adopt an instrument 

7 of government which is not a charter, then that which they 

8 do in the four-year period is a nullity and it has to then 

9 be replaced by the General Assembly law. Is that the 

10 theory? That has not been my understand5.ng. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's have Mr. Clagett's 

12 statement. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: I would say an instrument of 

14 government is a charter. A code is not a charter. It is 

15 thought here that the experiment of a code county is one 

16 which has never been tried, that we do feel and the 

17 ■ Committee is unanimous in its thinking, that the best 

18 form of structure for a county to effectively exercise 

19 the home rule power is by means of a charter. 

20 We don't necessarily mean that that is the 

21 only way it can be done. We do mean that it is the most 



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1 effective way to be done. So, the thinking of the 

2 Committee here is that by the end of the four years, the 

3 most effective way will be this V7ay. So that if they have 
^ followed the experiment of the code county over the four- 

5 year period, then a form or instrument of government 

6 provided by the Legislature would and could replace or 
'5' shall replace the code form. 

8 JUDGE ADKINS: Well, I don't care to labor this 

^ if I'm the only one who has the problem, because I v/on't 
be dealing with it too much longer, but it does seem to 

^^ me by using the term instrument of government in the first 

^2 sentence and non-charter county in the second sentence, 

13 you are creating an impossible amount of confusion as to 

1^ what may happen in the first four years. I think you 

15 either ought to call it your instrument of government or 

16 your non-charter county, rather than call it one thing in 
1''' . one sentence and another thing in another sentence, and I 
1® think this mixing of the two languages only tends to add 
1^ to the confusion. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: I think maybe you've got something 

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1 shall provide by public general lav; an instrument of 

2 governmGnt for all counties which have not adopted an 

3 instrument of government by January 1 of the fourth year 

4 following the effective date of this Constitution. What 

5 is the matter with that, John? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: This is a change in what I 

7 thought you said before. Let's go back to the fundamental 

8 What does the Committee contemplate in the four-year perio(^, 

9 that counties must adopt a charter form of government or 

10 take the legislative form, or are the counties to be 

11 permitted to adopt a form of government other than a 

12 charter form of government? 

13 MR. CLAGETT: The Committee here contemplates 

14 that a charter form of government shall be adopted after 

15 the fourth year, and v;e did so because we were unable to 

16 really conceive of an effective way of handling the home 

17 rule powers otherwise. 

18 THE CHAIRI'IAN: V/hat you are saying then, if 

19 I understand you, that within four years the county has 

20 ! the right to adopt a form of government, but it must be a 

21 I charter form of government. If it doesn't, then at the 



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1 end of the four years, it takes whatever the Legislature 

2 provides. Is that what you are saying? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Right. 

4 DR. BURDETTE: Now, what do we mean by charter? 

5 If we mean by charter the construction set forth in the 

6 present 11(a), I don't see anything in this Constitution 

7 that requires that construction. Therefore, if you v/ant 

8 to call it a charter, the difficulty right av;ay is that 

9 it gives the idea that it has in 11(a). In other words, 

10 I was not in on the last discussion at the Committee 

11 which was somewhat informal at the Brown Estate, that the 

12 governing body had to be called a County Council, which 

13 is the provision under 11(a). 

14 MR. BROOKS: It doesn't have to be called -- 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know that the term 

16 charter county carries all of the provisions of 11(a). 

17 DR. BURDETTE: If they are synonymous, but then 

18 I revert immediately to Judge Adkins ' point, if they are 

19 synonymous, why not use similar language. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: It seems to me, in the light of 

21 Mr. Clagett's last statement, in the fourth line, the word 



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1 ought to be charter instead of instrument of government. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: No, we don't v/ant to do that. 

3 We have been over that until hell has frozen over it. 

4 MRS. BOTHE: Why? 

5 MR. CASE: He's going to tell you. Just give 

6 him time. 

'7 MR. CLAGETT: Let's not go back in to that one 

8 because that is exactly what Mrs. Freedlander has been 

9 asking and finally got the ansvzer. 

10 MR. SCANLAN: I think the Committee is causing 

11 this mish-mash. If you mean charter, say that, or if you 

12 mean code county, say that. Define the instrument, so we 

13 knox-? what you mean. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: What does the Committee intend 

15 shall be done by the counties within the first four years? 

16 MR. CLAGETT: They shall exercise the broad 

17 powers granted under this Constitution. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: I mean so far as adopting the 

19 form of government is concerned. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: And shall certainly direct them- 

21 selves tov^ard adopting an instrument of government to 



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1 handle those powers. 

2 ■ ..- THE CHAIRMAN: But it doesn't have to be a 

3 charter? 

4 WR. CLAGETT: We contemplate that instrument 

5 of government is synonymous with charter. 

6 MR. SCANLAN: The more he explains it, the 

7 more I don't understand it. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: Let's go ahead. We feel that 

9 what we are doing is giving a sugar coat to the pill 

10 "charter" and it is solely for that reason that we use 

11 the words instrument of government, to make the pill more 

12 palatable to those counties. Whereas, in Prince George's, 

13 specifically, if we used the word charter, we are building 

14 up a body of opposition which is not necessary for us to 

15 do if we can sim.ply use a phrase that sugar-coats the pill 

16 Now, if you are looking at a gun in the face 

17 . and somebody is behind the gun who is going to pull the 

18 trigger, what do you do? You put your hands up in the air 

19 and you say, I'll come back another day. When you've got 

20 a gun, you can shoot him first. But here, insofar as 

21 Prince George's County is concerned, over a period of now 



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1 nearly 12 years, we have fought the battle of charter and 

2 it has a label which is such that you have a body of 

3 opposition the moment you use the word, 
4: Now, recognizing that as a fact and recognizing 

5 that Prince George's County is a sizable county with a 

6 substantial vote which could very adversely affect the 

7 whole of our efforts here, we have given them the sugar- 

8 coated pill and .we ask that you go along with us, recog- 

9 nizing that experience and leaving it there, but it is 

10 synonymous and meant to be synonymous V7ith charter. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: I think it breeds confusion. 

12 Mrs. Freedlander? 

13 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, for over a 

14 year I've fought the lone battle on the Committee, as to 

15 what the meaning of the word charter is. I cannot see 

16 why it is a dirty word, but evidently it is, and I think 

17 . the onus is on the Comraission to clear the air. There are 

18 members of the Committee who feel that if the Commission 

19 feels it should be called what it is, the Commission 

20 should clear the air. I think we should make a group 

21 decision and decide whether to call a charter a charter. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: I am more confused than in just 

2 a matter of terminology. What I am confused about, in 

3 q)ite of the explanations by Mr. Clagett, is what does 

4 the Committee intend that a county of any class shall do 

5 within the first four years? Does a county have to take 

6 any action? Does Prince George's County have to do any- 

7 thing under the provision of this section? 

8 MR. CLAGETT: No, they don't. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Why don't they? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: The answer is they want to live 

11 in contentment for four more years. 

12 THE CHAIR14AN: After the four years, does 

13 Prince George's County, under your understanding, have to 

14 do anything? 

15 MR. CLAGETT: No, because by January 1st of 

16 the fourth year, a charter drawn by the General Assembly 

17 will then be imposed upon Prince George's County and it 

18 will have a charter. 

19 THE CHAIPJ4.\N: In other words, you are saying 

20 that you want to abolish the County Commissioner method 

21 of operating county governments after four years? 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: That is correct. We do not 

2 believe that the county -- let's get this clear. We do 

3 not believe that the County Commissioner form of govern- 

4 ment, with the exercise of both legislative and executive 

5 power, can effectively operate in the best interest of the 

6 people and utilize the broad grant of power. 

7 Number one, it could provide under the exercise 

8 of the broad grant of power that the next election of 

9 County Commissioners shall be 20 years from now and there- 

10 fore the present County Commissioners shall stay in 

11 authority for the next 20 years; but they might be young 

12 men and might make it 40 years. Now, that is entirely 

13 possible, unless you have an instrument of government or 

14 a charter, and I'm using the words synonymously, now, 

15 which will provide for regular election, which will provid^ 

16 in other ways for the orderly operation of the government 

17 of the county. 

18 We do not believe, and it's been a long fought 

19 battle, we do not believe that without a charter the broad 

20 grant of power can be as effectively utilized than with a 

21 charter and we are aiming now for the ultimate rather than 



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1 merely for the existing. 

2 ... THE CHAIRMAN: Would your purpose be accom- 

3 plished if you didn't use this nasty word charter and 

4 used instrument of government throughout? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 

6 THE CHAIRl^iAN: I would like to let Dr.Burdette 

7 address himself to that, because he and I are in accord 

8 to the extent that I have said what I said, V7ith the 

9 exception of maybe -- no, we're in accord all the V7ay 

10 through. 

11 DR. BURDETTE: Except on one point. My philos- 

12 ophy on this, as I expressed it to the Committee, has been 

13 that we ought to leave to the county within reasonable 

1^ Constitutional process real home rule for the construction 

16 of a county government, that the State of Maryland does 

16 not need to decide whether or not v/e have an elected 

17 Executive or a Council, in the Council Manager form, or 

18 in the County Commissioner form, and in still another form 

19 which might be included as is precluded by 11(a), and that 

20 is that the executive should be a part of the legislative 

21 body at the same time as the executive. 



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1 I am not trying to speak for one or the other, 

2 but leave it to the county. If we're going to say that 

3 the county has to have an instrument of government, that 

4 permits any kind of instrument of government, and indeed -f 

5 if they don't get any instrument of government, Legislatur 

6 will give them one, but then they can amend it and they 

7 can amend it in the way I would presume that the Legis- 

8 lature, by providing the methods of amendment, would 

9 allow them to amend to that form vjhich they find compatibly. 
10 So, as you say, if Garrett County wanted to have a Com- 
H- missioner form of government, whether the rest of the 
^2 State thought it was better or not, it is compatible with 
13 home rule. 
14- THE CHAIRMAN: And against the term of 20 years 

15 or 40 years, it is a requirement that that instrument be 

16 ratified by the voters of the county. 

17 DR. BURDETTE: Yes. 
16 THE CHAIRMAN: So what you are saying is you 

19 are not seeking to abolish the Commissioner form of govern 

20 ment. You are just trying to avoid using the dirty word. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: May I propose an amendment? 

2 To the last sentence it can be added, the General Assembly 

3 shall provide by law for an instrument of government which 

4 shall become effective for all counties which on January 

5 1st of the fourth year following the effective date of 

6 this Constitution have not previously adopted a local 

7 instrument of government which was submitted to and 

8 approved by a majority vote of its people. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you get the sense of it, 

10 Mr. Clagett? He has taken away the phrase non-charter 

11 from the third line at the end and substituted the languag 

12 and I don*t have the exact language. 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: Have not previously adopted a 

14 local instrument of government which has been submitted 

15 to and approved by a majority vote of its people. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: Well, appreciating the fact that 

17 , Judge Adkins was one of the composers of just exactly 

18 what he is now amending, I think he has license to do so. 

19 Let me hear it once again. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give it to us slowly, 

21 Dale? 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: The General Assembly shall 

2 provide by law -- 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Public general law. 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: All right, shall provide by 

5 public general law for an instrument of government which 

6 shall become effective for all counties which, on January 

7 1 of the fourthyear following the effective date of this 

8 Constitution, and here we insert new language, have not 

9 previously adopted the local instrument of government 

10 which has been submitted to and approved by a majority 

11 vote of its people. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second'? 

13 MR. MITCHELL: Second it. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: VJhat happens in the period of 
16 four years? 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: Exactly what would have happened 

17 • under your language. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: Well, you would still have Sub- 

19 section (b) . 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: I don't know. We haven't gotten 

21 to that yet. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Give me the last part of that -- 

2 not previously adopted a local instrument of government, 

3 "what? 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: Which has been submitted to and 

5 approved by a majority vote of its people. I said people, 

6 but Dr. Burdette suggested voters. 

7 DR. BURDETTE: Qualified voters voting on their 

8 own. 

9 JUDGE ADKINS: By a vote of the qualified 

10 voters voting on their own. 

11 MR. SAYRE: If you said instrument of home rule 

12 government -- 

13 JUDGE ADKINS: I'm just trying to maintain the 

14 language they used in the first sentence, that's all. 

15 DR. BURDETTE: I have no objection to home rule 

16 MR. SAYRE: Isn't that what we're after? 

17 THE CHAIRMA.N: Mr. Bond? 

18 MR. BOND: May I ask Judge Adkins , under this 

19 proposal, within the four-year period, couldn't just a 

20 County Commissioner form of government be presented to 

21 the people and be adopted"?* 



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JUDGE ADKINS: I was told by at least one 




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member of the Committee that that was V7hat the Committee 




3 


intended. Yes, I think they could, under this language. 




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THE CHAIRl-IAN: Any further discussion? 




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MR. MARTINEAU: I have a question. Does the 




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phrase an instrument of government mean that there shall 




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be only one or can they provide a number of them? 




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THE CHAIRMAN: Who? 




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MR. MARTINEAU: The General Assembly shall 




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provide by law for an instrument of government. Is this 




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uniform for all counties that have not theretofore adopted 


.- 


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THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. That was the answer given 




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previously, that this is a self-operative provision, that 




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every county which hasn't enacted its ovm form automat- 




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ically takes this one form. 




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MR. MARTINEAU: It is just one? You can't 




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take -- 




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county action to choose. 




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MR. MARTINEAU: They could adopt Plan A for 




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county -- 






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1 MR. CLAGETT: You would have to do it subject 

2 to referendum. 

3 MR. MARTINEAU: Why? 

4: MR. CLAGETT: V7elL, because we feel that is 

5 inherent in the adoption of any charter or instrument of 

6 government. 

7 THE CMIRl-IAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

8 MRS. BOTHE: I was wondering whether this 

9 language, whether it is yours or Judge Adkins', would 

10 adequately guarantee that a county would adopt an instru- 

11 ment of government adequate to home rule powers, because 

12 it seems to me you have a loophole here in V7hich a county 

13 that adopted any kind of government could say, we'll have 

14 a dog catcher — 

15 MR. CLAGETT: It would be put into effect by 

16 the very persons who are being governed by that government 

17 May I say, what you are saying right now we tried to do, 

18 and v7ho is going to determine what is suitable? 

19 MR. SAYRE: The people ought to. 

20 MR. CIAGETT: They can do that by this method 

21 here. 



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1 MRS. BOTHE: Well, in your Prince George's 

2 County V7here your people are so sore at the prospect of 

3 a charter, suppose some person creates some instrument 

4 of inadequate government within the four-year period -- 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It has to be adopted by the 

6 people. 

7 MRS. BOTHE: The people don't want a charter. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: They are going to get it, anyway. 

9 That's the point. There are only 37 charter counties in 

10 the entire United States. Four of those 37 are right here 

11 in Maryland. So, it hasn't been the most popular form of 

12 government. However, all authorities agree that it is the 

13 most effective structure of government where you are going 

14 to use such broad powers as we have provided here. 

15 Now, it is in order to give those broad pov/ers 

16 that we are going this additional step and it is a pretty 

17 difficult step to take. It is one that I think we are 

18 going to have difficulty enough in selling it, but I think 

19 it can be accomplished. The last vote in Prince George's 

20 County vjhen the charter was defeated was a close one. 

21 Before that it v;as a substantial majority. The movement 



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1 in Prince George's County is in the direction of acceptanc 

2 of the idea. 

5 MRS. BOTHE: May I raise a question of a 

4 hiatus that might be created if something less than a 

5 charter or instrument V7ere created during the four-year 

6 period and then the charter provided by the Legislature 

7 wouldn't be operative. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: Say that again. 

9 THE CHAIRl'L/^N: But if it is a less adequate 

10 one, it is one that the people of the county have adopted. 

11 MRS. BOTHE: Perhaps. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Not perhaps. They will have. 

13 Otherwise, they v^ill not have complied with this section. 

14 MR. CASE: She's talking about the four-year 

15 period. 

IQ THE CHAIRllAN: That's right, within the four- 

17 year period, the people have to adopt it. 

IQ MR. CASE: Suppose they don't do anything? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Then the charter adopted by the 

20 Legislature becomes effective. 

21 MR. CASE: That's right, but at the end of the 



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1 four-year period, that's what she's talking about. 

2 MRS. BOTHE: I was concerned that any kind of 

3 an instrument that was adopted vjould preclude the imposi- 
^ t ion of the State's charter. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

6 MR. SCANLAN: I have no problem with what 

7 Judge Adkins has suggested as an amendment. There is a 

8 lucidity which I find lacking in the first part. Is it 

9 the consensus of this Commission, I think I have the 

10 Committees' views, that the phrase instrument of govern- 

^•^ ment used in the first part means charter and only charter 

^^ or could it mean something less than charter? Could it 

13 mean code? 

14: Suppose the General Assembly provided for a 

15 code county procedure and that was approved by the voters 

IS in a local -- 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: When you say code county, you 

18 don't provide a form of government. You would have to 

19 have some kind of an instrument providing a form of govern 

20 ment. 

21 MR. SCANLAN: But it vjould be less than charter 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: That's right, it could be a 

2 County Commissioners' form. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: This is a question of substance 

4 the Commission passed upon and I guess maybe I was asleep 

5 or not there. Has it passed on this point? 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I don't think it has passed 

7 on it, except inferentially , but as I understood the 

8 previous discussion and the purpose behind this motion, 

9 if the people of the county want a commissioner form of 

10 government, they may have it. If they want a form of 

11 government in V7hich there is one person to exercise the 

12 pov7ers of government, both legislative and executive, they 

13 can have it. If they want to have an elaborate charter, 
1^ they can have that, but they must make up their minds to 

15 do something by popular referendum within the four-year 

16 period. 

17 DR. BURDETTE: May I add under (c), which 

18 hasn't been read yet, if they get an inadequate government 

19 they can get up a petition and attempt to make it adequate 

20 bring it to the voters. That is, the county governing body 

21 cannot stop the voters, as I understand (c)'s intent, from 



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1 proposing an amendment. 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: On that comment you made, I 

3 don't think -- it certainly was not intended by my amend- 

4 ment . You said must act within the four-year period. 

5 I don't conceive that to the be case. Counties which have 

6 heretofore enacted a charter form of government, as, for 

7 example, my own county of Wicomico, would not have to 

8 resubmit that within the four-year period in order to be 

9 within the exemption. They must have done it prior to the 

10 four-year expiration after the adoption of this Constituticfn 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 

12 MR. SAYRE: I have a problem which maybe you 

13 can clarify. Judge. Are we allowing the counties to have 

14 all powers not otherwise delegated? Now, I'm not clear 

15 from your language that this Constitutional form of 

16 government that is required for all counties that had not 

17 taken action prior to January 1, I'm not clear that the 

18 General Assembly incorporates all the pov7ers necessary to 

19 have those reserve powers. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: You vjill have to say that again. 

21 MR. SAYRE: Does this language submitted require 



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1 the General Assembly to come up with an instrument of 

2 government that grants all of the pov7ers necessary to 

3 home rule? Maybe I'm confused. Doesn't home rule mean 

4 you have all powers not otherwise denied? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Except by the charter and by the 

6 General Assembly by general public law or by the Constitu- 

7 tion. 

8 MR. SAYRE: If you deny powers in your charter 

9 no one else is exercising, where are you? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: You better go ahead and amend it 

11 under Subsection (c), and go ahead and get it. 

THE CMIRMAN: May I assume the prerogative 

13 of a Chairman and at the moment the provider of things to 

14 eat and say we have to adjourn if we are not going to have 

15 to make new arrangements to take the place of other new 

16 arrangements. 

17 (At this point there was a dinner recess.) 



12 



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2 CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION COI^IMISSION 

3 
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7 EVENING SESSION 

November 21, 1966 - 7:30 p.m. 

8 University of Maryland Law School, Baltimore, Maryland 

9 
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14 Appearances as heretofore noted. 

15 
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19 

20 Reported by: 

C. J. Hunt 
21 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Can we come to order, please? 

2 We will resume consideration of Section 11.04. 

3 The matter before you is the motion of Judge Adkins to 

4 amend Section 11.04(a). The Section as it would read, 

5 if the motion is adopted, is as follows: 

6 • The General Assembly shall provide by public 

7 general law methods and procedures by which either the 

8 County by public local law or the voters of a non-charter 

9 County by petition, may enact an instrument of government 

10 subject to ratification by majority vote of the voters of 

11 the County voting thereon. The General Assembly shall 

12 provide by public general law an instrument of government 

13 which shall become effective for all Counties existing 
1^ on January 1 of the fourth year following the effective 

15 date of this Constitution, which have not previously 

16 adopted a local instrument of government V7hich has been 

17 submitted to ard approved by a majority vote of the 

18 qualified voters voting thereon. 

19 I suggest that in the light of that amendment 

20 it might be desirable now, Mr. Clagett, to strike out 

21 the words, non-charter, in the third line, as removing 



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1 some further ambiguity and not hurting the sense. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: Where is the third line? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: The third line of 11.04(a). 
4: MRS. FREEDLANDER: The third line from the 

5 bottom. 

6 • THE CHAIRMAN: Top third line, voters of a 

7 non-charter County by petition can read. Voters of a 

8 County by petition. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: I V70uld agree with that. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept that as part of 

^^ your amendment. Judge Adkins? 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: May I take a minute to look at 

13 it? 

14 MRS. BOTHE: What about the Counties where 

15 there has already been a charter adopted? 

16 JUDGE ADKINS: That is the question that bothers 

17 me . 

18 MR. HAILE: The General Assembly can take care 

19 of that situation. 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: I think the implication would 
be if you strike out non-charter, I have no brief for that 



10 



21 



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language, other language might be inserted, but I think 
Mrs. Bothe's point is well taken, then you would imply 
at least all Counties now having a charter form of govern- 
ment would have to resubmit the matters to the voters. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Not would have to, could. , 

JUDGE ADKINS: If they didn't, they would risk 
the danger. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Not under the language that you 
propose, because you V7ere careful to avoid that pitfall, 
were you not? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I tried to be. All right. I 
will accept it. 

DR. BURDETTE: We should make it clear somewhere 
that those ^-^o have instruments of government are not 
affected . 

JUDGE ADKINS: I think we have done that. 

MR. CLAGETT: Let's take the movement right 
now that is on in Montgomery County, where, as I understand 
it, they may go to a different form of executive setup. 
V/ouldn't this be a golden opportunity for them to go ahead 
and accomplish whatever change they want to accomplish? 



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DR. BURDETTE: Nothing prohibits them. 
MR. HAILE: They can do it now. 
DR. BURDETTE: Indeed, they put it on referen- 
dum, and it was defeated. 

THE CHAIRIIAN: We are not getting this in the 

I 

record very V7ell when you jurap back and forth. Is there 
any objection to deletion of the words, non-charter, 
in the third line? 

JUDGE ADKINS : I vjould accept the amendment, 
Mr. Chairman. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Is there further discussion of 
the amendment? 

MR. SAYRE: I have a question. 

THE CHAIR>LAN: Mr. Sayre? 

MR, SAYRE: If they haven't adopted some form 
of government, is that what we are talking about prior 
to January 1 four years hence? Is that what we are saying? 

JUDTE ADKINS: I would assume the Chair's amend- 
ment would permit any County not having previously adopted 
charter government to enact an instrument government here- 
after, or would permit any County which has heretofore 



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adopted charter government to change its form of govern- 
ment within the four-year period and still qualify under 
paragraph, under sentence one of the (a) paragraph. 

THE CHAIRMAN: I think so. 

MR. SAYRE : After four-year period, you 
are going to have an instrument submitted to the people, 
is that right? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Not after the four-year period 
you wouldn't have it submitted to the people. I assume 
the right of amendment vjould be inherent in the people, 
but the instrument V70uld become effective at the end of 
four years if they had not previously voted on it, the 
charter which the General Assembly proposes. 

MR. SAYRE: Then you haven't submitted to 
referendum? 

JUDGE ADKINS: No. 

MR. SAYRE: It becomes -- 

THE CHAIRMAN: That is it. That is the black- 



jack. 



JUDGE ADKINS: A take-it-or-leave-it concept. 
MR. HAILE: The question arises, it says the 



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General Assembly shall provide by public general law. 
Shouldn't we say, at its first session after the adoption 
of this Constitution, so that it will do it promptly? 
It may delay the matter. 

THE CHAIRMAN; Is there any necessity to make 
thera do it at the first session? 

MR. HAILE: Unless they do it, I don't know 
what procedure the Counties by public local law would 
follow or the voters by petition. They V70uldn't have 
any procedure to follow. 

THE CHAIRMAN: You are talking about the 
first sentence. I V7as thinking of the second sentence. 
I think your point is v7ell taken. Do you agree, 
Mr. Clagett? 

MR. CLAGETT: I think so. I think it adds a 
degree of impetus to it . 

THE CHAIRMAN: Then you would start the sen- 
tence by the phrase, at its first session follov7ing 
the adoption of this Constitution, the General Assembly? 

MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any objection to that. Judge? 



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1 JUDGE ADKINS: If you are embodying that as 

2 part of my motion. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: I am, to save time. Is it 
^ acceptable? 

5 Judge Adkins? 

6 JUDGE ADKINS: Surely. 
V THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander? 

8 MRS. FREEDIJ^.NDER: Custer's Last Stand. Is 

9 it in order to make a motion to move that we replace 
10 the v7ords , instrument of government, with the word, 
H charter, and see what that looks like? 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Move it as a substitute. 

13 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I so move. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Or amendment of the motion 

15 would be better. You move to amend Judge Adkins' motion 

16 by substituting the v7ord , charter, for the v7ords , instru- 

17 ment of government, wherever they appear in the Section. 

18 Is that it? 

19 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

21 MR. GENTRY: Second. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Discussion. 

2 MRS. FREEDLANDER: We have been talking, 

3 using the words, form of government, to signify charter, 
4: and I think there is a difference. A form of government 

5 could be a County Commissioner form of government or a 

6 County Manager form of government or County Council form 

7 of government. We are talking here about a framework 

8 of government, the same as we are sitting here as people 

9 preparing a Constitution, and we have a policy up to now 

10 of saying, calling things V7hat they are, rather than beatii^g 

11 around the bush. I think this instrument of government 

12 is a vague phrase. I understand the political implica- 
15 tions of it. I don't think it will be understandable 

14 by the Constitution makers nor by the legislators if we 

15 continue using words that are deliberately vague and do 

16 not state what we really mean, that sometime soon all 

17 the Counties should have a charter form of government, 

18 a charter, not a charter form, a charter government, and 

19 the form can be of their own free will. Therefore, I 

20 think V7C should use charter instead of instrument of 

21 government . 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: . Let me ask you, because I 

2 personally would go along with you partv/ay, but not all 

3 the way. Are you using charter simply as a better term 

4 than instrument of government, or are you using it as 

5 something to preclude County Com.missioner form of govern- 

6 ment , for instance? 

7 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Not to preclude. You could 
3 have a County Conrnissioner if it is within the charter, 
9 and if this is V7hat the people want, if they want County 

10 Commissioner. 

11 THE CHAIRI-IAN: Wouldn't it be better then to 

12 say instead of the phrase,' instrument of government, 

13 something like, charter, or other form of government? 
14: MRS. FREEDLANDER: Charter is not a form. 

15 Charter is the framev;ork as a Constitution is a framework 

16 You could have a form that would be an executive type 

17 government, cabinet type government like the British 

18 or parliamentary form, you could have a presidential 

19 form. The form is what you decide as a people. Frame- 

20 v7ork is your charter, is your Constitution, is your 

21 By-laws or call it what you will. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Aren't you afraid that charter 
in its popular meaning might be understood to mean 
something that would preclude a County Commissioner form 
of government? 

MRS. FREEDLANDSR: I don't think so. I think 
we can explain this. I think it is more understandable, 
both to those who favor it as well as those opposed to 
it. I think basically V7e all agree that these governments, 
these County governments in order to be able to accept 
all their Home Rule pov;ers we are giving to them have to 
have framework, charter, not an instrument, but frame- 
work and within this framework, they can provide for 
whatever form of government they want, 

THE CHAIRMAN: Further discussion? 

DR. BURDETTE: VJould you accept the term, 
written framework, in lieu of charter? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Accept it is not a succinct 
word. I think the charter has a meaning. It is a Con- 
stitution. It is synonymous with the v-7ord Constitution. 
If we accept Constitution, I think we should accept 
charter; and then within that, they can have vjhatever we 



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allov7 them; a lapse of four years, to allow any form 
government they want. What we are saying is, they must 
3 have a framework. They can't go without a framework. 

The form can be whatever the County wants. 
^ THE CHAIRI^IAN: Further discussion. Judge 

^ Adkins? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I would think the term, charter, 
properly interpreted after adoption of this Constitution 
would necessarily, in view of the history, mean a charter 
adopted pursuant to Article 11(a) , V7hatever it is of the 
Maryland Constitution, as it existed prior to the adop- 
tion of this Constitution and would not have, would not 
be a generic work. It is a specific v7ord of art in 
terms of modern, in terms of current Maryland thinking, 
^^ relating to a specific type of document adopted pursuant 
^^ to a specific provision of the existing Constitution. 

I think if you use the term charter, there is danger that 
it will be so interpreted. If you mean a broader con- 
cept as I do , and as I believe the Chairman has indicated, 
involving not only a charter but also a Commissioner 
form, subject to only the V7ill of the people, then that 



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1 word should not be used, but v.'e perhaps should use a new 

2 word, instrument of government. • 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 

^ MR. CLAGETT: I am not going to repeat what 

5 I have already said because I think what I said v/as 

6 clearly understood by everybody. I only add that I am 

7 completely appreciative of the integrity of the thinking 
Q of Mrs. Freed lander, but I am sincerely afraid that it 

9 is not practical insofar as the problem V7hich Prince 

^^ Georges County and other Counties vjhich have not followed 

^^ the charter form of government have run into, and .there 

^^ is no reason to allov; the monster to be resurrected, 

1*5 v7hich could defeat the whole purpose of v/hat V7e are 

^^ trying to accomplish here. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Wins low? 

16 DR. WINSIiDW: May I suggest a possible alter- 
^^ native to all of these, instead of saying an instrument 

18 of government or saying charter, merely say, may enact 

19 the basic law. There is no misunderstanding that. It 

20 doesn't necessarily mean the kind of charter other . 

21 Counties have had. It is merely a basic law. It is as if 



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1 you said Constitution, but it doesn't have the connota- 

2 tion that the word charter does. 

THE CHAIKI-IAN: Mr. Gentry? 
MR. GENTRY: Is the fear that you express that 

5 by using the word, charter, you preclude the Commissioner 

6 form? 

"^ THE CHAIRI-IAN: I have a fear that the same 

° effect Judge Adkins just mentioned, that the word has 

developed a meaning of its o\-m. It means a very special 
thing in Maryland. 

^^ . MR. GENTRY: Even used in the three places we 

12 

have it here, enact a charter, would be fearful that that 

^^ would mean either pushing the Commissioner or precluding 

^^ this Commissioner type? 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I think it could be. I 

1^ think the ambiguity could be largely removed by explicit 
^^ comment, but I think the same would be true as to the 

phrase, instrument of government. You could make it very 
clear that you meant here, charter, but not necessarily 
an Article ll(i:) charter. 

DR. BARD: Is it not true that in a sense 



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1 every County now does have a charter, in the broadest 

2 sense? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: In the broad sense. 

^ DR. BARD: And therefore if V7e use charter, 

5 v7ithout some description follov7ing it, we have already 

6 got it. This is V7hat I am saying. I like Dr. Wins low's 

7 suggestion. I think it would take care of the valid 

8 criticism Mrs. Freedlander has and at the same time keep 

9 us away from charter, v;ith the word, form, following it, 

10 because I think naturally we in Maryland say charter 

11 form. -That identifies it as a form, vjhether we like it 

12 or not. 

13 THE CHAIR^IAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

14 MR. SCANLAN: I think in 11.04(b) you have 

15 really a better word. There you say, until such time 

16 as the County adopts a plan or the General Assembly 

17 becomes effective. I note in the model Code they use 

18 the phrase instead of instrument of government, plan of 

19 government, and use it in a manner V7hich makes it clear 

20 that the charter is just one form of the plan of govern- 

21 ment. Nov?, I finally understand what they mean by 



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1 instrument of government. I guess it is clear in my 

2 mind. I think you had a better vjord at hand V7hich you 

3 did use in 11.04(b) . 

^ THE CHAIRIIAN: Mr. Clagett? 

5 MR. CLAGETT: I would only like to add that 

6 V7e met for what was it, about five hours, and we used 

7 practically all of the suggest 5.ons in one way or another 

8 that have been made here and finally came to the instru- 

9 ment of government being the one that fitted most neatly. 

10 It also, as you look up charter, is one of the phrases 

11 to define a charter in the dictionary. I don't think 

12 anybody is going to have any great difficulty in under- 

13 standing what is meant here. I think Dr. Winslov/'s 

14: suggestions gets us into an area V7here there are differ- 

15 ences , and where the differences get cumbersome as you 

16 try to deal with them later on. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are 

18 you ready for the question? The question arises on the 

19 motion to amend the pending motion by substituting the 

20 v;ord charter, for the word, instrument of government, wher 

21 ever they appear in Section 11.04(a). A vote Aye is in 



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favor of the use of the word charter. A vote No is a 




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vote in favor of retention of the phrase, instrument 




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of government. All those in favor of the motion, signify 




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by a show of hands. 




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MR. BROOKS: Three. 




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THE CHAIliMAN: Contrary? 




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MR. BROOKS: Twelve. 




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THE CHAIRMAN: The motion fails, 3 to 12. 




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The question now arises on the motion to 




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amend Section 11.04(a). Is there any further discussion? 




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Mr. Sayre? 




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MR. SAYRE: I repeat the question for Mr. Ad- 




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kins . Do I understand now under your new wording that 




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there is sufficient Home Rule so that we have the reserve 




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pov7ers for a County to operate itself? 




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THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I understand the 




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question. 




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MR. CLAGETT: I think I understand the ques- 




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tion, from previous conversations, and I think the answer 




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is Yes. 




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1 with the answer? 

2 MR. SAYIIE: I would like to have it explained 

3 to me , how we can know in advance that we have those 
4: pov7ers by this V7ording. 

5 THE CHAIPJ^IAN; I don't know that this wording 

6 is the wording that gives you the powers. You will have 

7 to restate your question because I don't think V7e follov; 

8 it. The powers of the County are covered by Section 11.03 

9 MR. SAYRE: Yes, but if the pov7ers of those 
10 Counties are not granted by an instrument of government 
^1 they don't have thera. That is \7hat worries me. 

12 MR, CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, let me explain. 

13 The powers are granted by the Constitution itself and 
14: the Counties have those pov/ers upon the effective date 

15 of the Constitution. VTith those powers, already granted 

16 by the constitutional instrument, the structure is 

17 merely the manner in v.^hich the County will exercise those 

18 powers, and that is v;hy 1 answered the question in the 

19 affirmative. The two dovetail, I think, in a v^ay that 

20 when you read the whole instrument, after V7e have adopted 

21 this amendment, so that there should be no question about 



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1 it. 

2 THE CHAIRI^IAN: I think that is \7hat I V7as 

3 trying to say. Section 11.03 governs the grant of 

4: pov7ers . It is either the powers that exist by virtue 

5 of the Constitution or that haven't been taken away ; 

6 by the Legislature; the manner of the exercise of those 

7 pov/crs is to be granted by the instrument of government. 

8 The County has to the extent that it is not taken 

9 away by the Legislature, full Home Rule power. If it 

10 chooses to adopt an arrangement of government that pre- 

11 vents -it from exercising all the powers that it has, I 

12 suppose this is possible. 

13 MR. SAYRE: If it is done by a class. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: No. Look at Subsection (b) . 

15 That tends to clarify it also, I think, until such 

16 time as the charter is adopted or instrument of govern- 

17 ment or plan, V7hatever we are going to call it, the pov7ers 

18 provided in this Constitution are in the hands of the 

19 existing County government, upon the effective date of 

20 the Constitution. 

21 MR. SAYRE: I guess we are trusting to the 



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General Assembly to come up with an instrument that does 
indeed grant powers. 

THE CHAIRMAN: The instrument V70uldn't grant 
the powers, Mr. Sayre . The powers are granted by the 
Constitution to the extent they are not taken away by 
the Legislature. 

MR. SAYRE: That is right. I am just thinking 
if the Legislature fell short on that instrument, from 
what other charter governments — 

THE CHAIRMAN: What instrument? 

MR. SAYRE: That the General Assembly said 
you have to accept four years hence, in other v7ords , four 
years have passed. You have had your change. You haven't 
done anything. Now, what is the instrument the General 
Assembly has come up with? Suppose that instrument is 
inadequate? 

JUDGE ADKINS: It V70uld be unconstitutional, 
Mr. Sayre, if it withheld from the Counties any powers 
V7hich this Constitution by other Articles delegated to 
them. It could not, for example, have within it a pro- 
vision that the Counties falling within the purview of 



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1 the plan which they adopt shall not have the pov;er to 

2 tax, for example, to use an extreme situation, because 

3 this would be unconstitutional in view of other provisions 
^ of this act. 

5 THE CHAIR>1AN: Mr. Sayre, let me make this 

6 comment. I believe I have a gluiimer of what you are 
'3' driving at. Under the present Constitution, you have 

8 powers granted either by a charter or by the Express 

9 Pov7ers Act. Under this Constitution you will have neither 
The charter will not grant pov^ers . There will be no 

^^ Express Powers Act. 

^2 MR. SAYllE: Right. 

13 THE CHAIRI-IAN: The charter, if it speaks on 

1^ powers, will do so only as a Constit ition, to say that 

15 such and such a power be not exercised or shall be 

16 exercised with certain liiiiitations . Therefore, if a 

17 charter is adopted, presumably it V7ill not contain a list 

18 of powers to be exercised by the County. It will not 

19 authorize the County to tax. The County will have that 

^^ pov7er 

21 MR. SAYRE: Then V7hen it come.s to one of the 



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various forms of government, it will only pick one, is 
that about it, then? 

THE CHAIRMAN:, What is "T"? 

MR. SAYRE : County Manager, County Council, 
elective executive. 

THE CFjMRMAN: That is just the framev;ork of 
government that provides the method of exercising the 
powers, but doesn't have anything to do with the confer- 
ring of the power itself. 

MR. BROOKS: That model charter will have one 
form of government in it, and if the people don't like 
it, they can then amend that charter V7hich is iii^posed 
on them by the State, but it can only have one form of 
government and yes, it V7ill contain some form of govern- 
ment in that one charter. 

MR. SAYI<E: One form that could be amended is 
what you are saying? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Certainly. 

MR. SAYRE: Okay. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question on 11.04(r) 
Are you ready now for the motion to amend 11.04(a)? Does 



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1 anybody v;ant to have it again? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: No, sir. V7e knov-7 it. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: A vote Aye is a vote in favor 
4r of amending Section 11.04(a) as previously stated. 

5 All those in favor, please signify by saying Aye. Con- 

6 trary, No. The Ayes have it. 

7 MR. BROOKS: Was that unanimous? 

8 THE CHAIRIIAN: It was. Section 11.04(b). 

9 MR. CLAGETT: It has already been discussed, 

10 I V70uld say, in large part. Here, until such time as 

11 the County adopts a plan or the General Assembly plan 

12 becomes effective, the existing County governments 

13 shall have the broad povrers of Home Rule provided in the 

14 Constitution. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scanlan? 

16 MR. SCANLAN: Why did you switch from, instru- 

17 ment of government, in your plan? The plan, this is the 

18 first time the word, plan, has popped up here -- until 

19 such time as the County adopts an instrument of govern- 

20 ment, or an instrument of government provided by the 

21 General Assembly, becomes effective. At least, that would 



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•'' have continuity with what v/ent before. This is a new 

v7ord . Is a plan different than an instrument of govern- 

3 raent, different from a charter, different from a Code 

^ County? 

5 DR. BURDETTE: This is a historical enactment. 

THE CHAIF^IAN: We haven't got time for any 
'^ more such explanations. The point is V7ell taken. We 

° ought to stick V7ith one or the other. 

^ MR. CLAGETT: I think it is just a matter of 

the fact that this has been drafted and redrafted. I 
would have no objection to instrum.ent of government 
being substituted for plan. 

^^ MR. SAYRE: Could we leave that to the Committee 

^^ on Style? 

15 THE CHAIR14AN: Let's be consistent and put that 

16 

^"^ MR. SCANLAN: I agree we should be consistent. 

^® If I had my druthers, I think I would have the word plan, 

1^ V7here we have had instrument of government, rather than 
the phrase, instrument of government. 



^•^ THE CHAII^IAN: You can move it if you v;ant . 



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^ Let's don't take that time again. 

2 MR. SCANLAN: I give up. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question or dis- 
^ cussion of Section (b) ? 

5 I have several questions that bother me very 

" much. There is no reference at all here to the continu- 

'^ ance of powers of a charter County, one that has an 

^ existing instrument of government. You certainly mean for 

^ that to continue. I have great difficulty with the pro- 

•^^ vision that the existing County governments shall have 

^■^ those powers provided in the Constitution. 
12 I^IR. CLAGETT: I didn't follow the second, 

1^ because I V7as thinking about the first. 

1'^ THE CHAIRMAN: The second, it seems to me you 

1^ are mixing apples and oranges. In the first part of 

1^ the sentence, you talk about an instrument of government, 

^^ not talking about powers at all and properly so. You 

IQ are concerned only V7ith the instrument of government. 

^^ It seems to me that is vjhat you ought to be concerned 

2^ V7ith in the case of the existing County governments. 

MR, CLAGETT: I don't see the problem because 



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if you have already got an instrument of government, 
then where is there any problem? If you haven't got 
an instrument of government, it says that the existing 
County government shall have the broad grant of povjer 
given by the Constitution. You can't really see v^here 
there is any problem. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me go back to the first 
part, first. VJhat about the charter Counties? 

MR. CLAGETT: They have an instrument of 
government. 

THE CHAIRMAN: V7here is the provision for 
them in (b) ? 

MR. CLAGETT: Well, you don't need it in (b) . 
You have already got it under 11.03(a). 

THE CKAIR>IAN: I see nothing under 11.04(a) 
that provides that the existing charter County continues 
under its existing charter. It seems to me that has got 

to be in (b) . 

MR. CLAGETT: Until such time as the County 
adopts. Nov7, if it has already got a charter, it has 
an instrument of government, and therefore it doesn't 



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have to adopt and immediately upon the effective date 




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of the Constitution, 11.03(a) v7ould give to that charter 




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County as well as all the other Counties broad grant of 




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povjer, so again I ask, where is the problem? 




5 


THE CIlAiraiAN: Baltimore County j.s a charter 

1 




6 


( 
County. IJhat part of Section 11.04(b) pertains to 




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Baltimore County? 




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MR. CLAGETT: Actually, 11.04(b) would not 




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affect Baltimore County because it already has an 




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instrument of government, and what is being contemplated 




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here is a provision to take care of those Counties which 




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do not have an instrument of government, being able to 




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effectively exercise the powers granted under 11.03(a) 




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THE CHAIRMAN: That is exactly v/hat you are 




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saying in the second part of 11.04(b). You are referring 




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to existing County governments. 




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MR. CI^iGETT: That is what we intend to say. 




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THE CHAIRl^lAN: Does that include Baltimore 




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County? 




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MR. CLAGETT: That would include all Counties, 




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and it v70uld mean whether or not they have an instrument 






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of government or a charter or they don't have that 
charter. 

THE CHAIPJ^IAN: Then, do you mean to say that 
Baltimore County as a chartered government shall have 
the broad powers spelled out in the Constitution regard- 
less of any -- no, it would still be subject to the 
limitations in the charter. 

MR. CIJ^GETT: Yes, sir, but instead of having 
express powers or the povjers provided by Article 23(a) , 
it would have the broad grant of power which v.'ould be all 
of those, plus any others that the Legislature had 
failed to give them and which would fall into the broad 
grant of pov7ers . 

MR. BROOKS: That is under, really, 11.03(a), 
that they have that power, rather than 11.04. 

MR. CLAGETT: 11.04 wouldn't affect Baltimore 
County, because it is contemplated here in 11.04 to take 
care of those Counties v;hich have no adequate structure 
or instrument of government to take -care of the exercise 
of the po\7ers under 11.03. 

THE CHAIRM/^.N: Until you said that, I was 



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^ V7ith you, but you have taken rae away from you again now. 

2 I don't see how you can possibly say that any County 

is going to be without the purview of Section 11.04. 
This is the only Section -- 
5 MR. CLAGETT; I understand v^hat you are get- 

^ ting at here. I don't mean to say that literally, 

^ because I do mean Baltimore County can amend its instru- 

8 ment of government and utilize the amending power under 

9 11.04, but that falls under 11.04(c). 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me put my question to you 

^^ this way. Baltimore County has a charter adopted prior 

•^^ to this Constitution. What in this Constitution says 

1^ that that existing charter and the powers spelled out 

1^' in it shall continue? 

15 MR, CLAGETT: 11.03(a): A County, including 

1^ Baltimore County, may exercise any power other than judi- 

1''' cial pov7er or perfotm any function which is not denied 

to it by this Constitution by its charter or by law, 

et cetera. 
20 MRS. FPEEDLANDSR: That doesn't apply to struc 

^^ ture. This is the Section on structure. I think v^hat 



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1 you are referring to, Mr. Eney, is what in this Section 

2 on structure applies to the existing charter government; 

3 is that correct? 
^- THE CH/.IRMAN: That is right. 

5 MR, CLAGETT: I find you in the same category 

6 that Phil Sayre v;as in a little while ago. V7e are deal- 

7 ing V7ith something entirely different here. The pov7ers 

8 are already there. This is merely the structure to 

9 exercise those povjers , and v/here that structure is already 

10 existent, it would not require any action by the County, 

11 such as Baltimore County, except where it might desire 

12 to amend its existing charter to more adequately take 

13 care of v?hat it wants to do in the exercise of 11.03(a). 
14- THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bo the? 

15 MRS. BOTHE: What is the status of local 

16 legislation during this four-year period as applied to 

17 Counties V7hich haven't yet adopted charter or are 

18 vjaiting out the four years to take on the State's pro- 

19 posal. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: They have all of those pov>?ers . 

21 MRS. BOTHE: They have them. Let's assume thc-r6 



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^ is a County that is nov7 a charter County, that doesn't 

2 enact an instrument of government and sits out the four 

3 years . 
^ THE CliAIR>IAN: County Conmissioners will 

5 legislate. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: They have the broad grant of 
^ pov7er . 

8 MRS. BOTHE: I understand, but if they have 

in 

^ no framework /vjhich to exercise 

10 MR^ CLAGETT: The Coiraiittee is finnly of 

11 the opinion, and this has been the cause espoused by 

12 Dr. Burdette from the outset, that the County Commis- 
1*5 sioners do have an adequate setup, and I am not saying 
1^ structure now, but do have an adequate setup, to take 
15 care of the exercise of the broad grant of powers. Hov7- 
1^ ever, there arc other problems that enter into the pic- 
1*7 ture such as I pointed up some time ago, that they could 

18 perpetuate themselves for twenty years, in office, by 

19 the exercise of those powers, so therefore, we feel, 

20 that is, the Committee feels, that the Counties and the 

21 existing County governments, including County Commissioner 



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form of government, can adequately administer the 




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affairs of the County V7ith the broad grant of powers 




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during this period. 




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THE CHAIRl'LAN: Judge Adkins? 




5 


JUDGE ADKINS: May I propose an amendment 




6 


to Section (b) , which will read as follows: Until and 




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unless changed by Section (a) hereof, County governments 




8 


existing at the date of this Constitution shall have 




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those pov7ers provided in the Constitution. 




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DR. BURDETTE: Changed by or changed under the 




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provisions of (a)? 




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JUDGE ADKINS: Under the provisions of Sec- 




15 


tion (a) hereof. That seems to me to meet the Chair's 




14 


objections and also what I conceive to be the hiatus 




15 


here of the County which does not, in fact, change its 




16 


form of government, pursuant to Section (a). That is, 




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charter Counties preexisting the date of this Constitu- 




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tion. 




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THE CHAIPsi'IAN: Is there a second to the motion? 




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MR. GENTRY: Second it. 




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1 MR. GEOTRY: Yes. 

2 MR. BOND: I V7ill second it, Mr. Chairman. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Gentry? 

^ MR. GENTRY: Instead of, or in place of the 

5 reference to pov7ers provided in the Constitution, th^ 

^ existing County government shall continue. 
'^ JUDGE ADKIKS: But you v;ant to broaden that 

8 to give them powers provided in this Constitution. 

9 MR. GENTRY: They have that by 11.03(a). 
Counties have all these powers. 

11 THE CHAIRl'IAN: This is the thing that was 

1^ causing me confusion before. 

13 Mr. Scanlan? 

I'i MR. SCANI^N: I would say, Phil, I wasn't 

15 disturbed about the vesting of powers, I was disturbed 

IG about the suiiple proposition, Montgomery County has a 

17 charter. The more I read 11.04(a) and 11.04(b) even as 

18 proposed under Judge Adkins ' amendment, it isn't clear 
1^ if Montgomery County didn't come in and readopt its 

20 charter under the procedures provided in 11.04(a), they 

21 V70uld be subject to the hazard or the possibility that 



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the General Assembly would impose its form of charter four 

years later. I still don't think that is clear, and 

that is a more narrow concern than worrying about v;hether 

the povjers pass or what happens to the pov7ers . I am not 

v7orriG-d about that. I think that is reasonably clear, 

I 
at least can be fairly implied, but I don't think it 

could be fairly implied that old charters carry over. 

I don't sec that language. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freed lander? 

MRS» FREEDLANDER: I v;ould like to speak to 
11.04(a). I agree with Mr. Scanlan. I would like to 
suggest that V7e add a sentence to 11.04 that would state 
something like this: Nothing in this Section shall apply 
to existing charter government. We are talking about 
structure novj, not pov.'ers . Nothing in this Section shall 
apply to existing charter government, a sentence. 

MR. CLAGETT: I don't think we want that, 
nothing :Ln this Section shall require. 

THE CIL.MR2-IAN: Mr. Sayre? 

MR. SAYRE: If v;e take the four charter govern- 
ment right nov7, I see them under this Constitution as not 



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1 necessarily exercising all the powers that they actually 

2 are entitled to. Therefore, see if this ties in vjith 

3 your wording, Judge: If V7e have something to the effect, 
^ existing charter instruments of County governments shall 

continue under their charter povrers until any such charter 

I 

" is amended. V/ould that solve the problem? 

'^ JUDGE ADKINS: I think you are saying the same 

Q thing I tried to sayin a little different language. 

^ MR. SAYRf::: Does this not say it more explicit- 

ly? VJe are only talking about charter governments. 
^^ JUDGE ADKINS: I wasn't. 

^^ MR. CLAGETT: In 11.04(a) v^here V7e used voters 

^^ of a non-charter County, V7e V7ere implying that the voters 

^^ of a charter County did not have to go through procedures 

^^ and requirements of 11.04(a). 

16 j^P,^ SCANLAN: We eliminated that. 

17 MR. CLAGETT: We have eliminated that. If 
actually there is any question about the intent here, 

^^ I would certainly not object to a clarification of it 

^^ so th3t we are certain that we get at the intent. 

23. Yilg CRA IP.2-ir\N : Let ma state again V7hat my 



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1 problem was find what I think Judge Adkins is trying to 

2 get at, but Ms solution doesn't entirely satisfy me 

3 either. As I understood your previous comment, 11.03 
^' deals with pov7ers . 

5 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, sir. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: That is the entire repository 

''' or the source of the powers in this Constitution. 

^ 11.04 deals V7ith the structure of County governments, 

but in 11.04(b) you mix the two, and my difficulty arises 

^^ out of the fact that you mix the tv70. If 11.04(b) con- 

^^ tented itself solely with structure, and said that exist- 

^^ ing charter County structure continues, and that until 

1^ such time as any other County adopts the structure or the 

i^ General Assembly plan or structure becomes effective, 

15 the existing structure of County go.^rnment in that 

IS County continues, I would have no difficulty, but it is 

1''' when you toss into the hopper as to the existing County 

18 governments only this question of powers that you create 

19 the confusion in my mind. Take pov7ers out of this Sec- 

20 tion. Then you leave it solely in Section 11.03 V7here I 
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1 • MR. BROOKS: If you deleted (b) altogether, 

2 wouldn't you really resolve the question v7ithout stating 

3 anything? 

4 THE CHAIRMAN: That worries me. I think what 

5 v;e need is a provision that says what existing structures 

6 of County government continue. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS: Why not just amend my motion 

8 tosay, shall continue, and shall have those powers pro- 

9 vidcd in the Constitution? 

10 THE CHAIKilAN: I don't see you need the refer- 

•^^ ence to pov/ers . 

12 JUDGE ADKINS: I think you 6o need the 

13 reference to pov7ers . 

14: THE CHAI^JL^N: 11.03 gives them the pov7ers . 

15 JUDGE ADKINS: Maybe it does. 

16 MR. DELLA: Mr. Chairman, couldn't you just 

17 add another paragraph, (d) , for instance, any charter 
IQ government now in existence, or in operation, that does 

19 not meet the requirement of this Constitution, will have 

20 to amend their charter to come up to existing lav.'S , or 

21 something to that effect. This gives them the opportunity 



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then to be recognized as a charter government and at the 
same time most of them probably V7ill comply with the 
Constitution and the power structure, et cetera, and if 
they don't, they amend their Constitution to so provide. 

MR. CLAGETT: Then, Mr. Chairman, if V7e added 
the language in Subsection (b) , the existing charter ~- 
the Counties which nov7 have a charter shall continue. 
VI ait a minute. That isn't it. All Counties which 
presently have a charter, as V7ell as those Counties V7hich 
have not adopted an instrument of government or General 
Assembly plan has become effective shall have those pov7ers 
provided in the Constitution. Would that do it? 

THE CrlAIKx-IAN: No. You would still have 
powers. Would this perhaps do it: Until such time as 
the County adopts an instrument of government or the 
instrument of government proposed by the General Assembly 
becomes effective, the structure of existing County govern 
ments shall continue in effect as the instrument of 
government for such Counties, or something to that effect. 

MR. CLAGETT: Except that you haven't got a 



structure for the County Coirmissioners . 



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THE CHAIKIAN: Why haven't you? The County 
Commissioners is a structure of government, isn't it? 

DR. BURDETTE: That strikes me as freezing the 
present charter from amendm.ent until some other action, 
but you certainly vjant to have them have the amending 
process V7hich they have in the existing charter. 

THE CHAIRI^IAN:. That is permitted under 11.04(a) 
What I usggested just says, until such time as that 
is accomplished, the existing structure of governvnent 
continues. 

DR. BURDETTE: But that almost implies until 
such time as they have a general overhaul, they can't 
have a single one sentence amendment, vjhich may be needed. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freed lander? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairman, your phraseolo 
just applies, I believe, to those Counties that are not 
chartered as yet. 

THE CHAIR^IAN: No, both. 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Not as V7ritten, until such 
time as County adopts. It docs not presume there are four 
that already h'lve it, the charters. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Adopts a new instrument of 

2 government then. 

3 MRS. FREEDLANDER: A nev7 instrument of govern- 
ment . 

5 THE CHAIRLIAN: Mrs. Bothe? 

6 MRS. BOTHE: I don't see the need for the 

7 v7hole paragraph. The pov;ers are there. They are im- 

8 mediately conferable at the time the Constitution is 

9 passed. If the County doesn't have a structure to proceed 

it 

10 withthem, it is going to have to find/somehow, apparently. 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: The necessity for it is 
1^ simply this, it seems to me. The vyhole structure of 
1*5 County Comnissioner form of government is spelled out 

1"^ in statutes. They are going to die v^hen the Constitution 

15 dies, so that unless V7e have something that affirmatively 

1^ continues these governments, until the new one is 

1*7 adopted, it seems to me you have nothing. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: You don't have anything an>^7ay, 

19 necessarily. You conferred pov7ers . 

20 THE CHAIRl-jAN: Why don't you have anything? 

21 MRS. BOTHE: You have forms of County govern- 



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1 menus c'r^l all but four Counties exercise local legisla- 

2 tion. 

3 IliE CHAIRMAN: Suppose in a particular County 
4: there is a provision nov? for three County Commissioners 

5 to be elected every four years. That is accomplished 

6 by statute. What is going to take the place of that 

7 vyhen that dies, v;ith the old Constitution? 

8 MRS. BOTHE: It says the County has the power, 

9 Hov7 the County is going to exercise it is a question for 

10 the County to decide. 

11 THE CHAIKIAN: What vjill continue the County 

12 Commissioners? 

13 MRS. BOTHE: The County \iill have to do some- 
1"^- thing or else v;ait out four years and adopt V7hat the 

15 State says. 

16 THE CH/.IRI'IAN: Mr. Sayre? 

17 MR. SAYRE: VJhat V7e are doing here is vjhat 

18 is proposed to be under the Constitution v?ith the 

19 schedule, and I think this is a valid concern whether v/e 

or 

20 v/ant to put it in the schedule /here. I V70uld like to 

21 reread this over and above what has been read: Existing 



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charter instruments of County government shall continue 
under charter powers until any such charter is amended. 
Other County structures of government shall continue 
until changed under the terms of this Constitution. 

Does that strike what V7e are talking about? 

THE CHAIPJ^AN: I don't know. 

MR. CLAGETT: Why couldn't we add simply 
another sentence and say, those counties presently hav- 
ing a charter instrument of government shall not be 
affected . 

MR. SAYIIE : They m.ay be affected because they 
are going to inherit more pov.^ers than they may exercise 
nov? and may vjant to amend. 

JUDGE ADKINS: May I make one more effort, 
and I vzill quit? If we make it read, until and unless, 
changed pursuant to the provisions of Section (a) 
hereof, County governments existing at the date of this 
Constitution shall continue. Haven't we said it? 

MR. GENTRY: Yes. 

MR. CLAGETT: And shall have those powers ~- 

MRS. BOTHE: They have povzers . 



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JUDGE ADKINS; I had that originally. The 
Chair feels it is redundant. I now agree. What we are 
really trying to draw here is a grandfather clause. 

MR. BROOKS: That is the schedule provision. 

JUDGE ADKINS: If you are going to put it 
in the Constitution, doesn't what I propose do it? 

THE CHAIRMAN: It does it better for roe. I 
don't know about the others. It is limited to the exist- 
ing government as a structure of government. 

JUDGE ADKINS: You don't get involved as to 
whether it is a County Commission, Code or anything else. 

DR. BARD: I would like to add if inherent 
within it is the fact that Baltimore City's present 
government is to be interpreted as a County government 
under that so-called statement, because the way it reads, 
it applies to the present, and presently we are not 
yet called a County government. I suspect that would be 
inherent, but I would like for it to get in the minutes. 

MR. CLAGETT: Let me see this now. How about 
this: The existing County government shall have those 
powers provided in the Constitution; 



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1 THE CHAIFMAN: You are still talking powers. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: Shall have those powers pro- 

3 vided in the Constitution, until such time as the County 
^ adopts an instrument of government or -- 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: May I make a suggestion? We 

6 are losing a tremendous amount of time on this. If this 

7 is a matter for a schedule, can we not delete it here, 

8 pass it, to be included in the schedule, with the clear 

9 understanding that what V7e are saying is that the schedule 
10 shall provide clearly that existing charters, existing 

H County Commissioner forms of government and existing 

12 Baltimore City form of government shall continue unles^ 

13 or until changed, pursuant to 11.04(a). 

14 JUDGE ADKINS: I don't agree that it is a 

15 schedule provision, because charters which have been 

16 adopted prior to the adoption of this Constitution will 

17 last perhaps as long as this .Constitution, and anything 

18 which lasts as long as this Constitution should not be 

19 a schedule provision, I don't think. I think it ought 

20 to be in the Constitution, but having said that -- 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to give us again 



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1 your latest revision of your motion? 

2 JUDGE ADKINS: Until and unless changed pur- 

3 suant to the provisions of Section (a) hereof, County 

4 governments existing at the date of this Constitution 

5 shall continue. 

6 MR. GENTRY: I aecond that. 

7 JUDGE ADKINS; As I understand -- 

8 MR. CASE: That docs mean, in effect, that if 

9 they haven* t changed by January 1 of the fourth year 

10 one shall become effective for them. I think that doss 

11 it. 

12 MR. BROOKS: That is only being good for four 

13 years, so it is not applicable forever after. It is only 
14: applicable for four years just as other grandfather 

15 clauses will be in the Constitution that will be in the 

16 schedule. 

17 JUDGE ADKINS: I don't think that is accurate 

18 in view of the fact that charter Counties which have 

19 acted prior to the date of this Constitution need to 

20 do nothing. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: It merely says if it is not 



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1 MR. BROOKS: There is nothing under this 

2 Constitution that does require them to do anything other 

3 than that after the four-year period. 

4 JUDGE ADKINS: No, but if you try to provide 

5 in the schedule that their government continues, it seems 

6 to me the schedule drops out at some period of time. 

7 MR, BROOKS: After four years, what question 

8 remains under this provision anyway? That has all been 

9 addressed itself to any which was the gap between enact- 

10 ment of the Constitution and the four-year lap. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: In any event, I am inclined 

12 to accept or to be in favor, if there is any question 

13 about the present language which I really honestly 

14 can't see, notwithstanding all this discussion, and the 

15 other seems to take care of it , I v^70uld be inclined to 

16 go along with it, because I am not V7edded to this par- 

17 ticular language. That should be in the schedule, too. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you substitute that for your 

19 previous motion, Judge Adkins? 

20 JUDGE ADKINS: Yes, sir. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't recall who seconded it. 



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MR. GENTRY: X seconded it, and I will accept 



that. 



THE CHAIRMAN: Would you give it to us again, 
unless and until changed, pursuant — 

JUDGE ADKINS: Unless and until changed, pur- 
suant to the provisions of Section (a) hereof, County 
governments existing at the date of the adoption of this 
Con^tution, shall continue. 

MR. BOND: I seconded the original. 

DR. BURDETTE: May I ask a question? Is that 
clear? I gather it is, Mr. Chairman, that although 
these governments continue, that they have such broader 
power^ if they be broadei; as are given by this new 
Constitution? 

THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think there is any 
question that whatever County government exists has the 
powers conferred upon it under Section 11.03. 

DR. BURDETTE: It seems to me as a layman that 
the language says expressly that those governments which 
are or may imply, which don't do anything within four 
years, continue with their existing structures and powers. 



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MR. BROOKS: That is right. 

MR. CLAGETT: That is what the amendment 
means to you? 

DR. BURDETTE: I think that it can bear that 
inference very strongly. If there were any intent to 
let them have the powers given in this Constitution, it 
would almost have said so. 

MRS. BOTHE: It did. 

MR. CLAGETT: Will you read it once again, one 
or the other of you? 

THE CHAIRMAN: Unless and until changed, pur- 
suant to the provisions of Section (a) hereof. County 
governments existing at the date of adoption of this 
Constitution shall continue. 

DR. BURDETTE: That means continue the way 
they are, doesn't it? It seems to me they continue as 
they are, structure and power. If you said, continue 
with respect to structure — 

MR. CIAGETT: May continue. Let's put a 
may, instead of a shall, and I am satisfied with it, 
because it doesn't mandate that they shall continue. It 



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means they shall continue and by use of may, instead of 
shall, it means they can be amended. 

MR. SAYRE: Unless and until. 

JUDGE ADKINS: No further comment. 

MR. CLAGETT: I would move we substitute the 
v:ord may, for shall. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you accept it, Judge Adkins? 

JUDGE ADKINS: No. That defeats the whole 
purpose of the proposal. I don't want to be arbitrary. 

DR. BURDETTE: Judge Adkins thinks this gives 
them broader powers of the Constitution? 

JUDGE ADKINS: Yes. 

MR. SAYRE: Do I understand that we can't 
go beyond a, you said of 11.04? Isn't that what you 
are referring to? We surely can incorporate a charter 
government could continue as it is, under Section 11.03(a) 
and therefore, I am not sure that I would confine it to 
just this part of the Constitution, pursuant to what you 
said. I would almost say, pursuant to the provisions of 
this Constitution. 

MR. HAILE: May I ask whether Baltimore County 



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would have to have another referendum on whether or not 
to have a charter? 

JUDGE ADKINS: I would think clearly not. 

MR. SAYRE; I would think so, as long as you 
make it this way. 

JUDGE ADKINS: That is covered by the amend- 
inent . 

MR. CLAGETT: Let me ask Judge Adkins this 
question. Why do you v;ant to mandate the continuance 
of the existing charters and not let the people, or not 
let them be amended or changed for the four-year period? 

THE CHAIP^^IAN: It doesn't do that. 

MR. CLAGETT: It says, unless or until changed 
under Subsection (a) above. 

JUDGE ADKINS: One of the provisions of the 
existing governments is a method of amending the govern- 
ment as it now exists. There is nothing here which re- 
moves the existing power of amendment. All it says is, 
the structure as now set up stays until something else 
replaces it. 

MR. CLAGETT: I am satisfied with that explanati 



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THE CHAIRI^IAN: Any further discussion? Are 

2 

you ready for the question? The question arises on the 

^ motion to amend Subsection (b) of Section 11.04 to read 

as follows: Unless and until changed, pursuant to the 
^ provisions of Section (a) hereof, County governments 

existing at the date of the adoption of this Constitution 
shall continue. All those in favor, please signify by a 
show of hands. Contrary. The motion is carried 17 to 1. 
Any further discussion of (b)? 
Section (c) . 

MR. CLAGETT: Section (c)provides that any 
instrument of government of a County shall include a 
provision for amendment by majority vote of the voters 
of the County voting on such amendment, or any amendment 
^^ submitted by the governing body or by petition. In 
^^ other words, it provides for an amendment to be included 

in the instrument of government, and a referendum. 
^^ THE CHAIRMAN: This makes it mandatory that the 

instrument of government include this provision? 
MR. CLAGETT: Yes. 



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1 Mr. Gentry? 

2 MR. GENTRY: Is there any history of any 

3 charter being adopted that was not amendable? 

4 MR. CLAGETT: No. 

5 MR, GENTRY: Is this really necessary? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: We felt it was necessary, because 

7 oth er wise we would have felt that the County Cominis- 

8 sioner form could go on ad infinitum. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion or 

10 question? If not, we V7ill move on to Section 11.05, 

11 Page 19. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: In Section 11.05, the Committee 

13 has provided that the powers of the General Assembly 

14 over the municipal corporations shall be shifted to the 

15 County, and the County may, by public local law, provide 

16 for the creation, incorporation, changing, merging, 

17 dissolution and altering of bounderies of its municipal 

18 corporations and may delegate pov;ers to them. 

19 However, the existing municipal corporations 

20 shall continue as a nonconforming use, and may be dis- 

21 solved or their powers withdra\7n only with the consent 



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1 of the municipal corporation or by consent of the Gen- 

2 eral Assembly by law. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Btrd? 
4: DR. BARD: Is the word, may, a restrictive 

5 one, a mandatory one? 

6 THE CHAIRl-IAN: Which may? 

7 DR. BARD: A County may provide. I would 

8 hope that it read, a County should provide, because 

9 actually a County, if it so desired, would not need to 

10 provide at all for it, is that correct? 

11 THE CHAIRMAN: That would be true in Balti- 

12 more County today. 

13 MR. BROOKS: Some don't. 

14 DR. BARD: I know. Two don't right now. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to make it compul- 

16 sory? 

17 DR. BARD: I say if you are turning over to 

18 the County responsibilities that are nov7 in terms of 

19 municipal corporations, that are now held by the State, 

20 the State has made it clear that it should provide for 

21 the creation of municipal corporations. If you are turn- 



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1 that whole power over to the County, then I think it 

2 would have to be a should, 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Suppose the County in the exer- 
^ cise of that power wants to decide that there shall be 

5 no municipalities within its borders? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: Exactly, as in Baltimore 

7 County right now. 

8 DR. BARD: I understand that and Hov7ard County, 

9 but the point is that you have turned over to the State 
10 the whole, the broad power, and now when you are trans- 
it ferring that broad power to the County you are not trans- 
it ferring it within the same frame of reference, as I see 

13 it. 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: This Section isn't the transfer 

15 of the power from the State to the County. 

16 DR. BARD: In a sense, it is . 

17 THE CHAIRl-lAN: No. 

18 DR. BARD: 11 (e) no longer exists, isn't 

19 that true, in the present Constitution? 

20 MR. BROOKS: That is true. 

21 DR. BARD: That is V7hat I am saying. My point 



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1 is that as long as 11 (e) doesn't exist, for example, 

2 you will no longer have four classifications in terms 

3 of municipal corporations. Isn't that true? 
^ MR. BROOKS: That is true. 

5 DR. BARD: Therefore since 11 (e) does not 

6 exist, everything that is now embodied in 11 (e) , it 

7 seems to me that whether the County actually moves forward 

8 in creating municipal corporations or not is another 

9 matter, but provision for it should be there, I would 

10 think. 

11 MR. BROOKS: Except that even under the present 

12 11 (e) and all of the constitutional provisions relating 

13 to municipal corporations, there is nevertheless on the 
1^ statutes a provision which gives the Counties at the 

15 present veto power over the creation of any Counties, 

16 so it is still optional. 

17 DR. BARD: The veto power is all right. I 

18 don't object to that, but the mere fact there V70uld be 

19 no way by which they could be created. 

20 MR. BROOKS: There is no way now unless 

21 Counties permit it. 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: There have been no municipal 

2 corporations permitted under 11 (e) since 1953, and the 

3 trend is not to create any more municipal corporations 
^ because of the moving of the Counties into the field of 

5 providing what has heretofore been identified and known 

6 as municipal services. Consequently, the need for 
V municipal corporations is not there to the extent that 

8 when originally created that need existed. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard's question, I dis- 

10 agree about the use of the word should, but he points up 

H what seems to me is perhaps an omission. There is nothing 

12 in this Article which says that the State shall not 

15 create a municipal corporation. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, there is. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Where? 

16 MR. CLAGETT: Over there, for the purposes of 
IV this Constitution -- wait a minute now. 

18 THE CHAIRl^N: It is not here. 

19 DR. BARD: No. 

20 MR. BROOKS:; The Section might read something 

21 like Counties exclusively may provide by public local 



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1 law for creation and incorporation, et cetera, under 

2 11.05. 

3 MR. SCANLAN: Yes. Otherwise, there would 

4 be serious question of whether the State didn't have a 

5 residual power traditionally to create a municipal cor- 

6 poration. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: No doubt there would have. 

8 MR. SCANLAN: Even with this grant of powers in 

9 the County. 

10 MR. CLAGETT: Here is where I say, in 11.01, 

11 Subsection (b) , the General Assembly may provide by 

12 law for the creation, et cetera, of Counties and multi- 

13 County civil divisions. There is no provision for it 

14 to create municipal corporations. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: The Legislature has the sovereigfi 

16 power to do it unless you take it away. 

17 MR. CLAGETT: Then maybe we have got to get 

18 that word, exclusively, in there: A County may provide 

19 exclusively. 

20 MR. BROOKS: Counties exclusively may provide. 

21 MR. CLAGETT: A County only. How about a 



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1 County only? 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know that that Is what 

3 you want either. It seems to me what you want is some- 
^ thing that explicitly says that the State shall not, 

6 and I would think the place for that is 11.01. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: I thought V7e had that in there 

V at one time. I winder where it went to. I have got it 

8 clear now: We had it in there in the sixth draft and 

9 then the Comnission told us to take it out of there and 
10 reference to Artie 11.01, Subsection (b) of the Sixth 
■^1 Report reads as follows: The General Assembly may pro- 

12 vide by law for the creation of Counties and other civil 

13 divisions, including regional governments and inter- 
im governmental authorities, but excluding municipal cor- 

15 porations and for methods and procedures. It looks 

16 like to me we got that left out of here. 

IV THE CHAIRMAN: It belongs in 11.01 (b) . 

18 MR. CIAGETT: Yes. I think we ought to put, 

19 excluding municipal corporations, back in 11.01 (b) . 

20 MRS. BOTHE : Dissolution remains, doesn ' t it, 

21 as a provision that the General Assembly alone can 



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1 dissolve existing. 

2 MR. CLAGETT: The Counties dissolve existing 

3 except where we provided by law -- 

4r THE CHAIRMAN: Consent of the General Assembly 

5 to the dissolution by Counties. 1 

6 MR. BROOKS: 11.05. 

7 MRS. BOTHE: That would be part of dissolu- 

8 t ion . 

9 MR. CLAGETT: We will insert into 11.01, 

10 Subsection (b) , an exclusion of the municipal corpora- 
ls tions. 

12 l.IR^ SAYRE : The Sixth Report merely excludes 

13 the General Assembly from creating municipal corporations. 
14: Maybe that is all we need. 

15 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Creating, incorporating, 

16 merging, alteration, here it is 11.01 (b) now as we are 

17 writing it. We have excluded municipal corporations. 

18 DR. BURDETTE : Do you make a motion? 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: What language are you going to 

20 use? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: I move that Section 11.01, Sub- 



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1 section (b) , be amended to include an exclusion of the 

2 power to create, incorporate, change, merge, dissolve. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you accomplish it simply 

4 by adding the phrase, but not municipal corporations, 

5 or, but excluding municipal corporations, at the very 

i 

6 end of the Section? 

7 MR. CLAGETT: Add it at the very end, after 

8 the vjord authority. 

9 THE CHAIRI'IAN: No, after the word governments, 

10 because authorities has been moved up now. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: That is right. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: The language would be, but 

13 excluding municipal corporations? 

14 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Yes. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: After the word, representative 

16 governments . 

17 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I second the motion, 

18 Mr. Chairman. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Any discussion? Are you ready 

20 for the question? The question arises on the motion to 

21 amend Section 11.01 (b) , by adding at the end thereof. 



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1 after the words regional representative governments, 

2 the v7ords, but excluding municipal corporations. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: Mr. Chairman, I am a little 

4 concerned before we leave that, by the provision in 

5 11.05, which says that, existing municipal corporations 

6 may be dissolved only by their consent, or the consent 

7 of the General Assembly by law. 

8 MR. SAYRE : That is where we had only by 

9 creation. That is V7hat concerned me. 

10 MR. CLAGETT: If we say they can't do it, 

11 then vre say they can do it -- 

12 THE CHAIRI'IAN: It seems to me in 11.01, you are 

13 saying the General Assembly cannot by lav; dissolve, but 

14 that is not inconsistent with consenting to dissolution 

15 by County under 11.05. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: Very well. If there is no in- 

17 consistency there -- 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: V7e come back then to Dr. Bsrd's 

19 question that the County should be compelled by man- 

20 datory language to provide by public local law for 

21 municipal corporations. 



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1 DR. BARD: I have another point there that is 

2 related to it. May I clarify it? 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

4 DR. BARD: What will happen to the various 

5 categories in which municipal corporations are now 

6 operating? For example, we say, no existing municipal 

7 corporation may be dissolved or be subject to the with- 

8 drawal of any existing power. All of these categorical 

9 arrangements just disappear now? 

10 THE CHAIRMAN: What do you mean? 

11 DR. BARD: There are four categories under 

12 which municipal corporations are operating, is that 

13 not true, in 11 (e) ? 

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

15 DR. BARD: Well now -- classifications. 

16 MRS. FREEDLANDER: There has never been any 

17 classification. 

18 DR. BARD: You haven't used it. 

19 MRS. FREEDLANDER: We haven't classified it. 

20 We have never used it . 

21 DR. BARD: There is a possibility. Does this 



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^ mean they are gone? Definitely, for municipalities. 

2 MR. BROOKS: Counties individually could 

3 set up a classification if they wanted to in each County 
^ or go unlimited. There is no restriction at all nov? on 
5 what relationship there is. / 

^ DR. BARD: Isn't that withdrawal of an 

'^ existing power? 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: No, it is a withdrawal with 

^ respect to an existing municipal corporation. In other 

^^ v7ords, the withdrav7al of the existing power refers only 

^•*- to the existing municipal corporation. 
^^ DR. BARD: Withdrawal of an existing form. 

13 MR, BROOKS: It really releases the whole 

^^ area to a great deal of freedom that at this point is 

15 restricted in the present Constitution and statutes. 

16 DR, BARD: V7hat is the major criticism that 
1'7 the Maryland Municipal League has on this subject? 

18 MR. BROOKS: I really couldn't say. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: I would assume from the nev7S- 
papcr accounts that their criticism is to taking away 



^^ from the Legislature and conferring on the County the 



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1 full power over municipal corporations, power of life 

2 and death, so to speak. 

3 MR. BROOKS: It is hard to say what additional 
^ fear they have over the present situation, where no 

5 municipalities are being incorporated. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Freedlander? 

7 MRS. FREEDLANDER: Section 2, Article 11 (e) 

Q which applies to classification has never been implemented 

9 There are no classifications of cities despite this pro- 
vision. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: There is one classification. 

12 l^RS. FREEDLANDER: One classification, but 

13 this would be null and void anyway. There is just one 
1^ classification of cities. 

15 MR. SAYRE: I don't see the problem. 

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further question? 

17 DR. BARD: How about distribution of funds? 

18 Would that also apply there, that is. State funds that 

19 go back to the County and then are redistributed to the 

20 municipal corporations? This is something that would 
^^ still be held onto. 



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THE CHAIRMAN: Existing municipal corpora- 
t ions ? 

DR. BARD: Yes. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 

Dr. Burdette? 

DR. BURDETTE: I have two questions. I am not 
sure what we are now speaking to. 

THE CHAIRMAN: 11.05, general. 

DR. BURDETTE: Whenever I am in a minority 
of one, I like to get recorded that way. We had a 
motion to make a change in 11.01 (b) . I should like to 
be recorded as voting against it. The motion wasn't put, 
but I don't want to be taken by unanimous consent. I am 
very glad it came this way. 

THE CHAIRx^iAN: I thought I did put the motion 
for 11.01 (b) . I am very sorry. There may be more than 
one opposed. Let me go back to it, then. 

DR. BURDEITE: This is the motion which was 
made by Mr. Clagett, seconded by Mrs. Freedlander. In 
any event, if the motion has been put, I should like 
the record to shov/ that I would have voted against it. 



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1 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you talking about the 

2 motion to add the phrase, but excluding municipal cor- 

3 porations? 

^ DR. BURDETTE: Yes. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, I thought I ha^ 

6 put it. The question arises then on the motion to 

7 amend Section 11.01 (b) , by adding to the end, after 

8 the words, representative governments, the phrase, 

9 but excluding municipal corporations. Is there any fur- 

10 ther discussion? 

11 MR, DELT^ : Are you still leaving in inter- 
im governmental authorities? 

13 THE CHAIRi-lAN: Yes, but it has been moved up 

1^ so that this comes before the word, regional government. 

15 Any further discussion? Are you ready for the question? 

IS The question arises on the motion to amend Section 11.01 

17 (b) by adding the phrase, but excluding municipal cor- 

to 

18 porations, /the end. All in favor, signify by saying 

19 Aye. Contrary, No. Dr. Burdette wants to be recorded 



20 



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21 Nov7, back to 11.05. 



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Mr. Gentry? 

MR. GENTRY: The second sentence of 11.05, 
providing the dissolution, without either its consent 
or the consent of the General Assembly, what do you mean 
by its consent, the City Council or the voters of the 
City? 

MR. BROOKS: City Council. 

MR. CLAGETT: I would say City Council would 
be the answer, and that is what is meant here. I believe 
I had better rephrase that more accurately, by the con- 
sent of its governing body. 

MR. GENTRY: Not voters, not petition? 

MR. CLAGETT: No. 

DR. BURDETTE: This leads me to a broader 
question. I should think the answer is there that, its, 
is the process provided in its charter, which permits 
dissolution, and since it is highly likely that there 
is no such process, and I should think if there is one, 
it would have to be follov7ed, and it would be illegal 
not to follow it, but otherwise, if it is silent, I 
should see no objection to its governing body. I am going 



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1 to ask some other questions if I may at this point. I 

2 am not sure what this means, with respect to, or be sub- 

3 ject to the withdrawal of any existing powers without 

^ either its consent or the consent of the General Assembly 

5 by law. 

^ The reason I am confused on this , I am not 

'^ quite sure from the remarks made that V7e haven't abolished 

° all the municipalities, unless recreated, and therefore 

^ the municipalities have to recreate them. I think we 

have to face that. This comes from a comment of yours. 



10 



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^^ Mr. Chairman, that Article 11 (e) will not be extant 



any more. That is going to be true. I should think 



13 that the words, of any existing power, would carry the 

they 

1^ inference that those pov/ers that /had at the time of the 

15 Constitution which would be the power given by Article 

1^ 11 (e) would remain, and therefore that the changes 

1''' which they care to make enlarging their powers under 

IQ 11 (e) , which they can now do, still remain under this 

19 language. Otherwise, X don't really see where we are. 

20 j4R^ CT^GETT: Don't we actually say that when 
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you are talking about? 

DR. BURDETTE: I think so, but a little while 
ago, the Chairman said that Article (e) would be entirely 
dead. I think this breathes life into it. 

MR. CLAGETT; I don't think the Chairman meant 
that they v;ould be dead because they can't be dead, becaus 
they are the very pov^ers that can't be withdrawn without 
the consent of the governing body or General Assembly. 

DR. BURDETTE: The reason I speak to this 
point, and I think it is vastly important, and I don't 
know how it is going to come out in the conversation, 
but I should think that if the interpretation that I am 
here tentatively and as a layman putting on it, that the 
municipality would not be so infuriated by this clause, 
if on the other hand the municipality can make no change 
whatever in its affairs, without the consent of the County 
of course the municipalities V7ill be infuriated, but if 
they have the pov7ers V7hich Article 11 (e) nov-7 gives them, 
they can make changes . 

MR. CLAGETT: No. 

THE CHAIRMAN: What powers do you understand 



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1 11 (e) gives to municipal corporations? 

2 DR. BURDETTE: To draw their own charters and 

3 to amend them as they see fit at any time under the 
^ Express Powers Act; that is, amending of structure of the 

5 government is not controlled by the Express Powers Act. 

6 THE CHAIRI-IAN: No. That is what 11 (e) is, and 

7 in answering the earlier question, I was supposing that 

8 the second sentence of 11.05 was referring only to 

9 existing powers in the charter, and that it was not pro- 

10 viding for the continuance of any part of Article 11 (e) , 

11 so as to confer nev7 powers on the municipal corporation 

12 v7ithout consent of the County. 

13 DR. BURDETTE: You may be right, but if the 
1- v;ord existing is to be construed as pov;ers that they 

15 now have, of course they have the powers in the charter 

16 because they have the power to change the charter. 

17 THE CHAIRJIAN: I think the Cornnittee intended 

18 only the charter powers, but let me ask them. Is this 

19 what the Committee intended, Mr. Clagett, that the muni- 

20 cipal corporations should continue to have the pov7ers 

21 presently existing under its charter? 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: Yes, that is what we meant, 

2 but what I am thinking is that, I am trying to reconcile 

3 that answer with the thought that the Committee also 

4: had, and that is that if the municipalities wanted to 

5 exercise a nev; power of some kind, they would have to 

6 get the power from the Counties. 

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Precisely, so that the phrase, 

8 existing pov;ers in the second sentence, refers to exist- 

9 ing powers conferred by the charter of the municipal 

10 corporation. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: Suppose they wanted to amend 

12 their charter and exercise an existing power to amend, 

13 to utilize a new power, which V7as in Article 23 (a), 

1^ or in 11 (e) . They would then have to go to the County 

15 to get that power to amend, but I am confused in my 

16 thinking at the moment by the exercise of an existing 
IV power in the charter to amend. 

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

19 DR. BARD: Under 11 (e) , Section 3, it reads 

20 as follows: Any such municipal corporation existing or 

21 hereafter created shall have the power and authority to 



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1 amend or repeal an existing charter or local law. 

2 Now, if by way of illustration it had under 

3 the phrase, existing power, this very power, Section 3, 

^ if it continued, then they could amend under Section 3, in 

5 any way within this frame of reference. 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That is what the Committee 
^ says it does not intend. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: That is correct. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: I think the solution is to 
clarify the phrase, existing powers, by saying, existing 

^^ powers set forth in its charter. That is what you are 

^2 talking about. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: I think that would clarify it. 

1"^ V?hat is your reaction, Dr. Burdette? 

15 DR. BURDETTE: I think it would clarify it. 

16 X don*t mind putting it on the table, but I am opposed 
^^ to it . I am so much opposed to it that I would vote 
18 against a Constitution that had it in it, and I would 
1^ suppose that anything that had anything to do with a 

20 municipality in this State would do the same thing. 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Clagett? 



10 



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1 MR. CLAGETT: I really didn't think Dr. Bur- 

2 dette's objection here went that far because I am look- 

3 long now to the record back in the transcript at Page 215 

4 of the proceeding at the Brown Estate, V7here the doctor 

5 was dissenting from the charters of existing localities 

6 being changed by the Counties, and here we said that 

7 the Counties couldn't change the existing, and we are now 

8 saying, the Counties can't change the existing charter 

9 to take care of your objection at that time, so why do 

10 you feel so fundamentally opposed to it? 

11 DR. BURDETTE: It V70uld seem to me clear, 

12 this is, of course, the death knell for alternate povjers 

13 in the State before very long. 

14 MR. CLAGETT: Isn't that view now because 

15 right nov7 by act of the General Assembly no new municipal- 

16 ities can be created except by consent of the County on 

17 dissolution. The County enters into the picture and 

18 must take over the liabilities as well as the assets? 

19 DR. BURDETTE: This, you see, is the statute 

20 for a tijv.c and place. I think there V70uld be no doubt 

21 that that law could be amended by the General Assembly, 



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1 if a strong case were to be made that some County is 

2 blocking a municipality, which is badly needed in the 

3 State. That is quite different from a constitutional 
4: matter. Yet I can see that as new cities develop, the 

5 Counties don't want or may not want to allow this to, 

6 happen. The General Assembly can amend the present 

7 statute for that purpose. That is not really the case. 

8 If the municipalities to legitimately and naturally 
grow -- 

10 MR. CLAGETT: How will they grow? They can't 

H without consent of the County. 

12 DR. BURDSTTE: That is exactly the point. 

13 They V7ill grow, if for nothing else, in technological 

14 service. They don't have the power of annexation under 

15 this arrangem.ent . I can see circumstances in which this 

16 is just like a man that has a house, built in 1880, with- 
IV out electricity, and if he can't have electricity in 

18 1950 without the consent of people who don't V7ish him 

19 well anyhov;, he is in a very difficult situation. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: I appreciate what you say. If 

21 you don't have a provision such as this, you have a basic 



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1 conflict in our constitutional draft between the 

2 Counties exercising broad powers and the municipalities 

3 exercising the same power in many instances. Somebody 
4: had got to resolve that conflict. 

5 DR. BURDETTE: My ov7n answer to that has been, 

6 you see, that the General Assembly, by general public 

7 law should provide such arrangements as in its wisdom will 

8 take care of the changing needs of municipalities. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: Even if it shifts those powers 

10 as it has in many instances to the Counties today, you 

11 say it ought to be able to v;ithdraw them tomorrow, 

12 because it has done so insofar as the annexation pro- 

13 visions? It has done so insofar as the dissolution 

14 provision. It has done so insofar as creation of any 

15 new municipalities are concerned. Those powers have 

16 already been shifted by statute from the statute of the 

17 General Assembly to the Counties. 

18 DR. BURDETTE: Yes. As a matter of fact, I 

19 don't think v;e are in too much trouble really about 

20 denying creation of new municipalities because I suspect 

21 they can be created by constitutional amendment, if they 



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1 v:ere badly enough needed. We don't need any more 150 

2 population towns created, but if you are really going 

3 to say that Hagerstown and Cumberland are absolutely 
4: straitjacketed the same as the Counties are going to 

5 allow them to develop, this may be very tight business. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: I think that brings into focus 

7 something else. There v;ere back in 1960, 152 municipal- 

8 ities in the entire State. There are now 149, because 

9 three of them have been dissolved. Of that remaining 

10 149, some 115 are of a population of less than 2500 

11 persons. Now, with that staring us in the face, we feel, 

12 and the Committee, I thought, was in agreement, that 

13 the trend of the future was toward a dissolution of 

1- municipal corporations as a device of local subdivisions. 

15 DR. BURDETTE: Unfortunately, we don't touch 

16 that. We say they can't be dissolved without consent. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me interrupt. This is an 

18 interesting dialogue, but the rest of us are merely 

19 sitting by. I don't think V7e are accomplishing anything. 

20 I would like to get clear, and then anyone 

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1 dation of the Commission is, or Committee is as to the 

2 second sentence. Is the phrase, existing powers, in- 

3 tended to refer to existing powers in the charter powers? 
^ MR. CLAGETT: Yes. I am asking that we 

5 insert there, Mr. Chairman, after the word powers, the 

I 

^ words, set forth in its charter. 

7 MR. SCANIJ^N: I second that. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection to that? 

9 DR. BURDETTE: I object. 

10 l^R^ HOFF: I object to it, too. I don't 

^^ think -- I think V7e are treading on dangerous territory 

^^ V7hen we say that we are taking away the powers that have 

1^ been granted to the municipalities under Home Rule. I 

1^ think you are mistaken when you talk about the power of 

15 a County having the veto power against annexation, for 

16 instance. It is my belief that municipalities can enact 
1*7 without the consent of the County. 

18 MR. BURDETTE: Right now. 

19 MR^ HOFF: Right now. I don't think that that 
2^ power ought to be removed. I don't think that power 

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that the municipalities as they exist today ought to 
have the powers that they have today. Now, if you are 
talking about the creation of new municipalities, all 
right, but don't tamper with the powers that we have 
given to municipalities under Home Rule. 

MR. CLAGETT: Technically speaking -- 

THE CHAIRiMAN: In order to get it before us 
formally, v;ould you make a moti.on? 

MR. CLAGETT: I V70uld move, Mr. Chairman, that 
the second sentence of 11.05, Section 11.05 be amended, 
after the words, existing poxv-ers , to include and the 
words be inserted, set forth in its charter, so that it 
would read, No existing municipal corporation may be 
dissolved or be subject to the withdrav;al of any existing 
powers set forth in its charter, without either its 
consent or the consent of the General Assembly by lav?. 

THE CHAIR14AN: Is there a second? 

MR. CLAGETT: I will further amend, by either 
its, and change the word, its -- 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Consent of its governing 

body. 



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^ MR. CLAGETT: To, the consent of its govern- 

2 ing body. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

MRS. FREEDLANDER: Second. 

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have anything further to 

6 say on the motion, Mr. Clagett? 

7 MR. CLAGETT: No, sir. I think it is clear. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Senator Hoff? 

9 MR. HOFF: I still can't see the argument 

^^ that we should remove from the municipalities the powers 

^^ which they have today. I see no necessity for it. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bond? 
13 MR. BOND: I would like to ask a question 
1^ right on that point: If a municipality within its 
15 charter today has the power to amend its charter in order 
IS to take care of changing situations, doesn't the language 
1'7 as proposed by Mr. Clagett not straitjacket the municipal- 
is ities, because they have the existing power to amend, 
1^ and they can keep on amending in order to meet changing 

20 situations? 

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think the language V70uld 



12 



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1 be susceptible of that interpretation. If so, it would 

2 be far from clear. If you intend that, it ought to be 

3 said expressly, I think. 

^ MR. BOND: Then we are taking away the power 

5 to amend the charter. i 

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That is exactly what Mr. 

7 Clagett intends. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: We mean that they shall be 

9 nonconforming uses, which means that v;hen you attempt 

10 to change, alter, expand, et cetera, it must be with 

11 the approval of the County. 

12 THE CHAIPvi^IAN: Dr. Bard? 

13 DR. BARD: In answer to Mr. Bond, suppose a 
14: County so desired not to provide for changes, merging, 

15 dissolution, et cetera, what recourse would a municipality 

16 have that finds itself in that County? In other words, 
IV it would have to operate in terms of v;hat it has fully, 

18 because there are no provisions within the County struc- 

19 ture to take care of changes. 

20 THE CHAIK2-IAN: I would assume that Mr. Hoff 's 

21 answer to that would be that it could amend its charter 



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1 pursuant to its existing Home Rule provisions and exer- 

2 cise the new power obtained under the amendment. 

3 MR. HOFF: I am not sure whether they have 
^ the power by charter amendment to annex. It is my 

5 recollection that power is given to them. It is not 

6 in the Constitution. It is in 23, in the statute. 

V MR. CLAGETT: It is in Article 23, and what 

8 Article 23 (a) does is to bring the County into the 

9 picture; in order for an annexation process to come about, 

10 there must be a referendum of the new area, the old area. 

11 Referring to what I was trying to do here, to briefly look 

12 over the annexation provisions of Article 23 (a) , Section 

13 19, and answer the question, or answer the statement that 
1^ the Counties have no part in the annexation process by a 

15 raunicipal corporation, and it is a little bit too de- 

16 tailed -- 

17 MR. HOFF: I hope Mr. Clagett will accept 

18 my word there is no provision in the act for the veto of 

19 the County over annexation. The only power of veto that 

20 the County has is in creation of new municipalities. 

MR. CLAGETT: I will have to accept that 



21 



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1 because I can't find anything to the contrary. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Isn't the question that is 

3 presented by this motion and the opposition to it the 

^ very narrow question of whether existing municipalities 

5 shall continue only with their existing charter powers 

6 and no enlargement of those povzers except with the con- 

7 cept of the County or whether existing municipalities 

8 can continue with their existing charter powers and any 

9 other charter powers which they can obtain under the 

10 existing charter by the amendatory process? 

11 MR. HOFF: I don't think that goes far enough, 

12 because I don't think that a municipality can include 

13 anything in its charter that would permit it to annex 
14: land adjacent to it with the protections that are now 

15 set up under Article 23. I think that whatever we adopt, 

16 we should adopt language that protects the Counties with 
IV the powers given to them under Article 23; I am sorry, mun: 

18 cipalities. 

19 MR. DELLA: Mr. Chairman? 

20 THE CHAIRI'IAN: Mr. Delia. 

21 MR. DELLA: Frankly, I don't see v/here the 



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1 fears are coming into this particular Section. You 

2 have, for instance, any municipality of any size that 

3 has any political power or political weight, in the for- 

4 mation of a charter government for a County as such, they 

5 are going to v/ield as much power as they can to make 

6 sure that the existing powers that they now enjoy are 

7 going to be incorporated in the povjer structure of the 

8 new charter government. 

9 THE CHAIRI^I/\N: They may be unsuccessful, 

10 Mr. Delia. 

11 MR. DELLA: That may be so. If they are un- 

12 successful, they don't have the strength they think they 
15 have. 

14 MR. HOFF: I can assure Mr. Delia that there 

15 are many, many battles between municipalities and 

16 Countys and a municipality of, let's say 2000 souls 

17 isn't going to stand a chance against the County govern- 

18 ment, particularly if that County government has the 

19 povjer to choke to death by prohibiting further expansion. 

20 MR. CLAGETT: I would like to ask John Brooks 

21 for a point of information here. Under Article 23 (a). 



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1 as I recall It, not as I recall it, but as I am sure, 

2 Prince Georges County is exempted. Consequently 23 (a) 

3 doesn't apply. 

4: MR. KOFF: The Washington Suburban Sanitary 

5 District and Park and Planning Commission are exempt. 

6 MR. CLAGETT: So is Prince Georges. We don't-- 
V ■ MR, HOFF; I don't think so, unless there was 

8 a future amendment . 

9 MR. CLAGETT: Section 4 providing Counties 

10 exempt, none of the provisions of Paragraphs 1, 2 and 

11 3 of this Article shall be construed to apply to V/orces- 

12 ter, Kent, Caroline, Allegany, Washington, Calvert, 

13 Wicomico, Dorchester, Somerset, Baltimore, Prince Georges, 

14 here we are, and St. Mary's Counties. 

15 MR. HOFF: What are 1 , 2 and 3? 

16 MR. CLAGETT: The Express Powers. 

17 MR. BROOKS: 1, 2 and 3 today really don't 

18 apply to anybody. 

19 MR. CI>AGETT: That is about what it adds up 

20 to. 

21 MR. BROOKS: That is not where the Counties 



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get the pov;ers . 

MR. CLAGETT: That is not where the annex- 
ation powers corns in. 2 and 3 -- 

MR. BROOKS: 23 (a), as it is today, would 
have to be just about completely rev/ritten under this 
Constitution any\7ay. Its application under this Consti- 
tution is almost nil. I think the policy question in- 
volves what is the source of the power, any new powers 
that a municipality can get if it is not from either 
the State or the County, and the County will have been 
granted all the powers in the nature of local govern- 
mental powers under this Constitution^ is broad grant 
of pov7ers so there are none left for the municipality 
to have unless it gets it from the County involved. 

MR. BOND: Aren't we saying that the existing, 
that there should be come consideration given to the 
existing municipalities in order to exist and keep going? 

MR. BROOKS: The recognition is under this 
second sentence that is proposed nov? , to protect them 
in v;hatever pov7ers are nov7 in their charter, because 
that outlines explicitly vrhat pov7ers they have, and what- 



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1 ever is in that charter in presently existing rnunicipal- 

2 ities, they are powers which the County can't interfere 

3 with. They are under this provision protected from the 
^ Counties that otherwise have a broad grant of power 

5 earlier under one of the earlier Sections. I think that 

6 is 11,03 (a), so that you have here a provision v7hich is 

7 a limitation to 11.03 (a), but if you don't have a limita- 

8 tion of this kind, you are saying that 11.03 (a) is also 

9 further qualified by vjhatever additional pov;ers existing 
10 municipalities seek to get through amendment without 

H any kind of restriction. 

12 MR, BOND: That is right. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Haile? 

14 MR. HAILE: May I make a philosophical 

15 observation here, Mr. Chairman? VJhy are vje treating 

16 municipal corporations more tenderly than we are treat- 

17 ing Counties? We don't reserve this status quo for 

18 Counties. A County can be changed or abolished by three- 

19 fifths vote of the General Assembly. 

20 MR. HOFF: You are giving Counties more 
pov/ers , not less . 



21 



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^ MR, HAILE : A County can be dissolved by three- 

^ fifths vote whether it wants to or not . 
3 MR. SCANLAN: There are really three points 

^ of view called up by this particular amendment: The 

5 phrase, existing powers set forth in the charters, they 

^ can't be taken from them without their consent, or the 

' consent of the General Assembly, vjould mean merely they 

° can keep what they now have in their charters. That 

^ doesn't go far enough for Dr. Burdette. He wants them 
to keep their power that they V70uld have under 23 (2) 



10 



^^ in effect. Senator Hoff V70uld go even further and as 

^^ to new municipalities , /would not v/ant them to be 

"^^ restricted? 

1^ MR. HOFF: I did not bring in the question of 

^^ nev7 municipalities. Dr. Burdette and I stand on the 

^^ same ground . 

1'7 MR. SCANLAN: If you adopted Senator Hoff's 

idea, you would have the situation wherein the future 



18 



^^ a County might create a very large municipality like. 



20 



say, the City of Silver Spring might decide to become a 



^■^ municipality with 160,000 people. That municipality 



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1 might have far less povjers under what it was granted 

2 by the County than the to^-m of Somerset now has, that 

3 I represent, with 800 families, that was created by the 

4 State. I don't think V7e v/ant the law permeated with that 

5 type of incongruity. Maybe you have a point. Maybe we 

6 are giving too much power to the County over the 

7 municipality, but I think it has to be uniform. I think 

8 you have to vote it up one way of another, up or do\im , 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? Are 

10 you ready for the question? The question arises on 

11 the amendment to the second sentence of Section 11.05, 

12 to provide that it shall read as follov7S : No existing 

13 municipal corporation m.ay be dissolved or be subject to 

14 the withdrawal of any existing powers set forth in its 

15 charter without either the consent of the governing body 

16 or the consent of the General Assembly. A vote Aye is 

17 a vote in favor of the sentence as amended. All in 

18 favor, please signify by a show of hands. 

19 MR. BROOKS: Fourteen. 

20 THE CHAXR>IAN: Fifteen; Dr. Jenkins has his 

21 hand up. Contrary? 



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1 MR. BROOKS: Four. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried, 15 to 4. 

3 Any further discussion ? Is there any further 
4: discussion of Section 11.05? 

5 I have some questions then, Mr. Clagett. 

6 When you refer to, in the third line, its municipal 

7 corporations, I assume you mean municipal corporations 

8 within its boundaries. 

9 MR. CLAGETT: That is the County's municipal 

10 corporations within its boundaries, which would mean 

11 that Counties, Prince Georges, one half of Takoma Park, 

12 only. 

13 THE CHAIRMAN: That is what bothered me. 
14- What about these multi-County municipal corporations? 

15 MR. BROOKS: There aren't any. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: Yes; Takoma Park is divided 

17 by the boundary line betx-7een Prince Georges and Mont- 

18 gomery, and part of it lies — 

19 THE CHAIPJ'IAN: Is it one municipal corporation? 

20 MR, CLAGETT: It is one municipal corporation, 

21 and it is in both Counties. Now, there, Mr. Chairman, 



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1 they are just going to have to get along as best they 

2 can. It is like a warring mother and father, or a father 

3 and a stepfather or two parents. 
^ DR. BARD: Two parents? What is VTrong with 

5 two parents? 

6 MR. CLAGETT: A double-headed monster. 
V THE CHAIRMAN: What is bothering me at the 
8 moment is not that, but its municipal corporations left 
^ me in doubt. 

10 HR. CLAGETT: I want to give a more serious 

^^ answer. I think 11.06 would be the means by vjhich they 

^^ V70uld continue to exist, and they V70uld have to do so 

13 by compact or agreement. 

14 THE CHAIRi-IAN: Shouldn't you say municipal 

15 corporations within its boundaries instead of its 
1^ municipal corporations? 

17 MR. CLAGETT: I would have no objection to 

1^ that. VJe just thought we had found a simple word instead 

1^ of three words. 

20 THE CHJvIRi'IAN: Is there any objection to the 

^^ phrase, within its boundaries, after municipal corporations!, 



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1 in the third line? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: I will accept that — V7ithin 

3 its boundaries. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Bo the? 

5 MRS. EOTHE : Mr. Chairman, I have a question. 

^ In the event that the power -- would it be theoretically 

'^ possible for the County's pov7er to control its municipal- 

Q ities to be v7ithdrawn pursuant to the creation of a 

^ regional government, in which case v;ho would have control 

1^ of the municipality? 

H MR. CLAGETT: The regional government, if 

^^ actually that was one of the pov7ers given by the Counties 

1«5 by concurrent action or by the: withdrawal by the General 

^^ Assembly. 

15 MRS. BOTHE : The regional government would have 

16 control of the municipalities within the entire region, 
1*7 the same as the Counties? 

18 MR. CLAGETT: If provided for. 

19 THE CHAIRl^li^.N: This is akin to another ques- 

2C> tion I had. This comes up out of the phrase, may delegate 

^"^ powers to them. I take it that this is subject to the 



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J- overriding power of the General Assembly to withdraw 

^ powers from the County. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: That is true. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: When you say, may delegate 

5 powers to them, you mean may delegate pov7ers of the 

6 County? 

"7 MR. CI^GETT: Delegate powers of the County 

Q to them. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Or -- 

MR. CLAGETT: I would have no objection to in- 

^^ serting, and may delegate powers of the County to them. 
^^ THE CHAII^MAN: Any objection? 

13 MR. GENTRY: You haven't got anything else 

^^ to delegate. 

15 MR, CLAGETT: I would think so. If there is 

1^ any question, that is V7hat we mean. You might delegate 

1*^ it, but the delegation might not be any good. 
18 THE CHAIRMAN: It still doesn't quite meet 

1^ the problem in my mind. Suppose there is a delegation of 
pov7or and the General Assembly later withdraws the area 
of the exercise of that pox-7er from all Counties. Does 



20 
21 



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^ this take it back from the municipal corporation? 

2 MR. CLAGETT: I would think so. 

3 THE CHAIR2-IAN; I should think it would be 
^ desirable to have some phrase in there, may, subject 

5 to the withdrawal pov;ers of the General Assembly under 

I 

" vjhatever Section it is, delegate powers to them. 

'5' MR. CLAGErX: All right. 

Q DR. BURDETTE: I don't think the County can 

^ delegate any pov7crs it doesn't have. 
^^ THE CHAIRMAN: It may delegate them at a time 

^^ when it has them. Then the Legislature withdraws the 

powers from the Counties. 
13 HR. CLAGETT: I think that is implicit. 

1^ THE CHAIRliAN: I won't press it, if you are not 

1^ concerned about it. 

16 MR. CLAGETT: I think it is implicit there. 

17 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Any further question 
16 on this Section? 

19 DR. BARD: Section 11.05? 

20 THE CHAIRl^iN: Yes. 

21 DR. BARD: I am still concerned about that 



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^ may or should. I am not concerned about it in terms 
^ of creation, but in terms of changing, merging, et cetera 
3 It seems to me that if they do nothing, well, I do be- 
^ lieve that soma of the points that have been raised are 

true. 

^ THE CHAIRMAN: The point is a County may 

''' desire to do nothing, as Baltimore County. 
® DR. BARD: I am not concerned about those 

^ Counties that now do not have municipal corporations, but 
I am concerned about those that do have municipal cor- 
porations. I don't think they vjould be fulfilling their 
obligations should they choose to do nothing, and under 
^^ this they can choose to do nothing, even though they 
^^ now embody the municipal corporations. 

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Why wouldn't it be possible for 

1^ them to choose to do nothing? 
1*7 DR. BARD: It would. That is v/hat concerns 

IQ me. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: What is wrong with it? Philo- 

2^ sophically, what is wrong with it? 

^1 DR. BARD: Philosophically, it would mean 



10 
11 
12 



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1 there not only is a neutral attitude towards municipal 

2 corporations, but there actually is an antagonistic 

3 attitude. 
^ THE CHAIRMAN: That may be what they want. 

5 DR. BARD: That is what concerns me. 

6 THE CHAIRilAN: Did you want to make a motion 
'J' with respect to it. Dr. Bard? 

8 DR. BARD: No at 10 o'clock. 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Section 11.06. 
10 MR. CLAGETT: In Section 11.06, v;e have pro- 
H vided for intrastate intergovernmental agreement, and 
1^ there I think V7e have only one matter of difference betv7eei 
13 the present writing and that contained in the Sixth 

1^ Report, as that is that in the second sentence we pro- 

15 vided that rather than by general law, both the County 

16 or other civil -- wait a minute. I had better read the 
IV sentence itself: Any County, other civil division, or 

18 municipal corporation may, except to the extent prohibited 

19 by lav7, and by that phrase is meant, prohibited by law 

20 of the General Assembly, which may be a general lav7 or 

21 by law of the County, which may be by local law; the 



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^ municipal corporations can be restricted in their power 

2 to compact or agree V7ith the State or with any other 

3 County, civil division or municipal corporation. 

^ THE CHAIRl'IAN: Is this an area where we need 

5 further division in viev; of the change we made as to 

^ the power of the Legislature earlier, so that we should 

^ say, except to the extent prohibited by public general 

law, or public local lav;, so as to make clear that you 

^ are not authorizing public local law by the Legislature? 

10 MR. CLAGETT: I would think that the phrase 

of 

^•^ would take care/both of those; the phrase, by law, 

■'•^ V70uld take care of both. If there is no question, I 

l*^ have no objection, because the intent of the Committee 

I'l- is, except to the extent prohibited by public general 

15 or by public local law. 

16 XHE CHAIRMAN: But you mean public local law 
"^^ passed by -- 

18 MR. CLAGETT: A County. 

19 THE CHAIRMAN: A County? 

20 y^^^ CLAGETT: Yes, not by the State, because 
^1 the State can no longer pass a public local law. 



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1 




THE CHAIRMAN: V7e had that earlier amendment. 


2 


I don' 


t know what Section it is. It troubles me. 


3 




MR. CLAGETT: Would it be 11.03 (a), V7here we 


4 


added 


an amendment? ■ 


5 




THE CHAIRMAN: We amended 11.03 (c) because 


6 


of the 


. same thing that I am concerned about now. In 


7 


other 


words, is this an authorization to the General 


8 


Assembly to enact a lav7 V7hich is not a public general 


9 


law? 




10 




MR. CLAGETT: No. 


11 




THE CHAIPsMAN: I don't think so. 


12 




MR. CLAGETT: No. It is not. 


13 




THE CHAIRM^\N: Any further question on 11.06? 


14 




Mr. Sayre? 


15 




MR. SAYRE: Just a question. V7hen v;e talk 


16 


about 


interstate agreements, or intrastate -- 


17 




DR. BARD: Intra. 


18 




MR. SAYRE: I was on another Section. 


19 




THE CHAIRI4AN: Any further discussion? 


20 


Mrs. 1 


}othe? 


21 




MRS. BOTHE: I vjonder if there might be some 




Conn Rcporiiri 


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1 possible conflict between 11.06 and 11.05, as applied 

2 to municipal corporations making intrastate agreements 

3 which are beyond their existing charter powers? 

^ MR. CLAGETT: If the County approved and there 

5 was nothing that restricted it either by public local law 

6 or by public general law, where would there be? 

^ MRS. BOTHE: It says any County, other civil 

8 division or municipal corporation may, except to the 

9 extent prohibited by lav?, which is construed as being 
public general and not constitutional lav7, so that if 

^^ a municipality under the language -- 

^2 MR. CLAGETT: By law would include consti- 

13 tutional. 

1^ MRS. BOTHE: That is my question. 

15 MR. CLAGETT: That is why I vjould prefer to 

16 hold onto by lav7, because it would include constitutional, 
1'7 public general, public local. 

18 MRS. BOTHE: All right. 

19 MR. CLAGETT: We do have a situation, as in 

20 Takoraa Park, v/here you do have a municipality in two 

21 Counties, and it may well have to have some medium to get 



10 



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1 along with its father and stepfather. 

2 THE CHAIRl-IAN: Any further question on 11.06? 

3 Mr. Sayre? 

4: MR. SAYRE: I come back to my first question 

5 here. Wouldn't it be possible for a regional government 

6 to have an agreement with a County outside of its regj.on 

7 or some arrangement vrherein a regional government would 

8 be involved? 

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Civil division would include 

10 it. 

11 MR. SAYRE: Therefore, there is no reason 

12 because of that to do anything to it. 

13 THE CHAIRI'LAN: Sure. Any further question on 

14 11.06? 

15 Section 11 -° blank. 

16 MR, CLAGETT: Before we get to Section 11 blank 

17 V7hich really is outside of our local government Article, 

18 the Committee believes, I would like to have the Commis- 

19 sion consider a separate Article to be entitled Article 

20 12, dealing V7ith intergovernmental relations, and that 

21 Article would read as follov7S: Section 12.01, inter- 



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1 


governmental cooperation. Nothing in this Constitution 




2 


shall be construed to prohibit, one, the cooperation of 




3 


the government of this State with any other governments 




4 


or, two, the cooperation of the government of any region. 




5 


County or other intergovernmental authority with any one 




6 


or more other governments. I would so move. 




7 


MR. SAYRE: Second. 




8 


THE CHAIRiMAN: Is there a second? 




9 


MR. SAYRE: Second. 




10 


THE CHAIPvMAN: Would you tell us v/hy? 




11 


MR. CJJvGETT: We feel that because of the 




12 


proximity of the large Counties, such as Montgomery, 




15 


Kox-^ard , Prince Georges, bordering the District of Colom- 




14 


bia, as well as possibly others, which border on neigh- 




15 


boring States, there should be some constitutional 




16 


writing v;hich v?ould further the cooperative effort of thos 


1 


17 


Counties with the District of Columbia in dealing V7ith 




18 


problems which transcend the boundaries of the County and 




19 


are interrelated with those of the District of Columbia 




20 


or other States. 




21 


We feel that the argument of some of the pcr- 






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1 sons who have appeared before the Committee, and who 

2 have appeared before the Commission, are ones which would 

3 justify this language being included in the Constitution, 
^ even though, of course, it may be quite true that there 

5 is nothing presently in the Constitution, in the Maryland 

6 Constitution, that V70uld prohibit the Counties from 

7 entering into agreement, or the State entering into 

8 agreement, except with Federal Constitution restrictions 

9 in the compact clause. It would be a means whereby this 
^^ method v70uld be available, pointed up, and direct the 

•^^ cooperative effort in that direction to solve the problems 

•^2 which are related to those areas. 

13 THE CHAIPvMAN: Any further discussion? 

I't I think, I think personally there is serious 

15 problem V7ith such a provision, because I would be fear- 

16 ful that this would mean perhaps that a municipality or 

17 a County or soma other civil division, regional govern- 

18 ment , could enter into arguments with another State or 

19 with the Federal Government without the consent of and 

20 against the desires of the State. This is an area that 

21 is becoming exceedingly touchy right now with the broad 



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385 



1 program of the Federal Government for aid, direct aid 

2 to Counties and municipalities, without going through 

3 State channels. There is some general feeling that this 

4 is unwise, and I have no strong notions one way or the 

5 other about that, but I would hesitate to attempt in this 

i 

6 Constitution to foreclose it, and I would be fearful that 

7 vjhat you propose would perhaps tie the hands of the 

8 General Assembly, if the General Assembly decided that 

9 in the future all direct aid from the Federal Government 

10 to Counties and cities ought to funnel through the State 

11 Government. 

12 MR. CLAGETT: Well, our Article would take 

13 care of regions. Counties or intergovernmental authority. 
14- It would not include other civil divisions or municipal 

15 corporations. Now, we provide merely that nothing in 

16 the Constitution shall be construed to prohibit, but if 

17 the General Assembly found that there was anything that woilci 

18 require action by it, there would be nothing to prevent 

19 it from doing so by general law, applicable to all 

20 Counties. 

21 DR. BURDETTE: Is that correct? If I understand 



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21 



386 



1 you correctly, the State could add additional agreements, 

2 but it couldn't abstract from these agreements, could it? 

3 MR. CIAGETT: It couldn't subtract from the 
4: agreement. The protection of the contract would take 

5 care of that, if there was an agreement. I 

6 DR. BURDETTE: That is the danger that the 
V Chairman is speaking about. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: What I am supposing is that 

9 if a Constitution says nothing in this Constitution shall 
prevent me from agreeing V7ith Dr. Burdette that the 

1^ sun is shining, that is tantamount to saying that he and 

12 X shall have the authority to make such an agreement. 

13 MR. CLAGETT: Let me ask you this. VJhere is 
1^ there anything in the Constitution that does prohibit 

15 the cooperation of Prince Georges County with the District 

16 of Columbia? 

17 THE CHAIPiMAN: I don't know that there is. 

18 I am content to leave it that way, but I don't want to 

19 create a situation that gives a constitutional blessing 

20 to this without a great deal more thought than you can 
possibly give to it at this point. 



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387 




1 


MR. CLAGETT: The model Constitution is really 




2 


the author of this language and insofar -- 




3 


THE CHAIRMAN: That provision in the model 




4 


Constitution has been subject to a lot of criticism recent 


- 


5 


ly. That is part of what is behind it. 1 




6 


[ 

MR. CLAGETT: We don't go quite so far as ' the 




7 


model Constitution. We have eliminated the whole of 




8 


Subsection 3 of the model Constitution, and we have 




9 


revised the language of Subsection 2. We merely say that 




10 


the Constitution, and I know of nothing in the Consti- 




11 


tution that does prohibit, the cooperation of the 




12 


government of the State of Maryland, with any other 




15 


governments , cr the regions or Counties insofar as coopera- 




14 


tion. Right now there is existent a very active effort 




15 


to take care of the mass transit problem between the 




16 


three Counties and the District of Columbia, and nobody 




17 


is interfering V7ith that, except themselves. 




18 


THE CtlAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 




19 


DR. BARD: I just think that the v7hole concept 




20 


is so terribly important that I would like to see it in 




21 


writing rather than through dictation, and study it for 






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1 a time. I don't think this is the moment to ask us to 

2 pass judgment on something like that, that important. 

3 MR. CLAGETT: It is in V7riting if you will 
^ refer to the Fifth Report, and Page 7 of that Fifth 

5 Report; preliminary draft, not for publication. Fifth 

I 

6 Report . 

^ DR. BARD: It isn't on the agenda for today. 

8 MR. CLAGETT: I am caught by that one. 

^ DR. BARD: Iv:as not prepared. I think this 

is too important a concept to set forth for a vote at 



10 



^^ this hour. 



12 



MR. CLAGETT: Would you want to table it? I 
IS have made the m.otion. In fact, I feel that it is -- I 
l'^ am very much persuaded by the presentation of Dean Ford- 
3-5 ham, and I can't recall the name of the person that 
IS appeared at the very early meetings of the Commission 
1''' but his comments V7ill appear of record in the minutes of 

18 that meeting or the transcript. I am very much persuaded 

19 by the argument that V7as then given to us, that this v:ould 
be a very helpful clause in stimulating cooperative effort 



20 



^^ between States and the units as defined, subdivisions 



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389 



1 as defined with other States. 

2 THE CHAIR14AN: Any further discussion? 

3 Mr. Sayre? 

^ MR, SAYRE: Mr, Chairman, because of the 

5 importance of this, I think it should maybe be referred 

^ for discussion to our next meeting and that the text b^ 

''' available with any comments at that time. 
8 THE CHAIRl'IAN: There is only one way to 

^ accomplish that, unless you can persuade Mr. Clagett. 
10 HK^ SAYRE: I move that this be tabled, to be 

^^ brought off the table at the next meeting, and that 

■^2 Mr. Clagett prepare a text with any comments. 
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? 

1<- DR. BARD: Second. 

15 THE CHAIRI'IAN: The motion is not debatable. 

16 All those in favor of the motion to table, signify 

17 . by saying Aye. Contrary, No. Mr. Clagett votes No. 

18 MR. CLAGETT: I don't make much noise in doing 

19 it, but I will hold up my hand. 

20 THE CHAIK^IAN: Section 11 blank. 

21 MR. CIAGETT: Here it is, the recommendation 



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•'■ of the Committee that where the General Assembly creates 

2 jobs or expenses incidental to the establishment and ad- 

3 ministration of agencies, offices or positions, except 
^ local Boards of Education, or elections required by 

5 general lav;, they pay the costs and expenses thereof. 
^ We feel that if you do not have such a pro- 

^ vision in the Constitution, it would be impossible for 

^ the Counties to properly budget, and carry out their 

^ responsibilities and the State would be without the inter' 
ference by the State. 
^^ We do not feel that this is property within 

"'•^ the local subdivision Article. We feel it should proper- 

13 Xy come V7ithin the Legislative Article, but because of 

1^ its necessity, we have gone ahead and drafted this 

15 and therefore present it to you to be included, to be 

1^ left up to the Committee on Style as to V7here it should 

" go. 

18 THE CliAIRKAN: May I be devil's advocate for 

19 a moment in an effort to save, time at 10:15? Wouldn't 

20 the provision such as this completely hogtie the Legis- 
lature in adopting any public general law, saying that 



10 



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1 the Counties shall do this, that or the other, provide 

2 this or that or the other advice? 

3 MR. CLAGETT: All they have to do is pay for 
^ it. 

5 THE CHAIRT'IAN: That is just the point. It 

6 might be a local service, that the State may say that 

7 the Counties should provide, and be akin to, but dif- 

8 ferent from Boards of Education, and yet this would be 

9 putting in as a matter of constitutional prohibition 

10 any right of the Legislature to require the Counties 

11 generally to do such a thing. 

12 MRS. FREEDLANDER: A point of order, 

13 Mr. Chairman. Didn't v/e approve of this at some previous 

14 time, this provision? 

15 MR. BROOKS: This was a part of the Second 

16 Report of this Committee. 

17 MRS. FREEDLANDER: I thought the Commission 

18 already approved this. 

19 MR. BROOKS: It accidentally got left out 

20 along the way and got reenacted. 

21 MRS. FREEDLANDER: We had lengthy discussion 



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392 




1 


and debate on this and approved it. 




2 


THE CHAIRMAN: I don't recall any lengthy dis- 




3 


cussions of this in the Commission. 




4 


MR. BROOKS: I V70uldn't say hov7 lengthy it 




5 


was. , 

1 




6 


I 
MR. FREEDIJiNDSR: VJe talked in terms of the cos 


;s, 


7 


who should pay for them. 




8 


MRS. BOTHE: That v;as the Judiciary. 




9 


MR. BROOKS: This V7as the first recommendation 




10 


made by this particular Coiiijnittee as a policy question. 




11 


THE CHAIRMAN: A policy question. It was dis- 




12 


cussed , yes . 




13 


DR. BURDETTE: What happened to the Judiciary 




14 


provision? Do we have any provision -- 




15 


THE CHAIRJ'IAN: Salaries of the Judiciary shall 




16 


be Statewide, yes. 




17 


MRS. BOTHE: That is a different dish of tea. 




18 


MRS. FREEDLANDER: I think the minutes will 




19 


shov7 we approved of this in principle. 




20 


THE CHAIRI-IAN: As a matter of policy, that is 




21 


right. 






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1 Is there any further discussion? 

2 MR, SAYRE : I am not sure I understand the pros 

3 and cons on this. Is this the tijne to understand them? 

^ MRS. BOTHE: Mr. Chairman, I gather the present 

5 Constitution doesn't have any analogous provisions at 

^ all. It just has certain offices provided for by State 

'5' salary, and most of them not. Has anybody studied up 

8 to see exactly what offices would be affected by this 

9 that aren't presently State financed? 

10 MR. HAILE: Mr. Chairman, V7e have many items 

■^1 in our budget that are required to be included in our 

■^^ budget by State lav;. For example , for medical examiners 

13 for Baltimore County, we must budget money to pay so much 

1^ per corpse that they examine. It is this type of thing 

15 that this is directed at. I don't agree that v;e have 

IG difficulty budgeting, because we knov7 ahead of time. We 

1'7 can make our estimates, but we know v^e have to include 

18 them in the budget and can't cut the items. 

19 THE CHAIIMAN; Mr. Hargrove? 

20 MR. HARGROVE: This is a tv70-way sword, isn't 
^1 it? Also, the Counties in their budgeting processes are 



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394 



1 pinched and will not creat services v/hich I think the 

2 General Assembly is inore or less forcing them to do. I 

3 think in the area, for example, of mental health, is 

4- an area in which the Counties are involved. There are 

5 areas even in education. I think kindergartens and 

6 things of that sort vs'hich are aside from the Board of 

7 Education which perhaps the General Assembly in its wis- 

8 dom might feel is necessary and of course, the County 

9 looking at its budget will feel they can't provide. 

10 This, I think, is something that ought to be studied from 

11 both ends. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: It would be my opinion that 

13 this Section would require the State to pay the cost of 

14 the Baltimore City Police Department and administration 

15 of the municipal courts of Baltimore City, and the People' 

16 Court of Baltimore City. 

17 MR. HOFF: Any regional County that might be 

18 created. 

19 MR. BOND: There is a form whereby a certain 

20 share of expenses are shared by the local subdivisions 

21 and by the Counties, cities and State. I knov? in V/elfarc 



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1 in order to have certain programs, the local subdivisions 

2 have to participate. I think this is too far-reaching 

3 for us to approve. It upsets the entire financial 

^ structure of the State. I think it goes beyond what a 

5 Constitution should do. 

6 hfR. CLAGETT: Specifically this matter is 

V dealt with in the Third Report of the Committee, dated 

8 May 27, 1966, and there the recommendation v;as 

9 that where the State Legislature created jobs, and govern- 
•^^ ment agencies, which must be paid for by the local 

1^ subdivisions, the Conrr.ittee felt that the Constitution 

^2 should require that any such State Legislature requiring 

13 financial payment by the local subdivisions roust first 

^^ be submitted to the local government of the subdivision 

15 for approval and also subject to a permissive referendum 

16 by the voters of the subdivision. 

17 We found that that \7as too cumbersome to try 

18 to deal with insofar as constitutional language V7as con- 

19 cerned, and therefore boiled it dov7n to the present 

20 recommendation that you have got in front of you. I don't 

21 believe the Commission as such has ever acted upon it. 



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1 and certainly -- 

2 THE CHAIRi'IAN: Would you, would the Committee 

3 intend that the cost of the administration of Baltimore 
^ City Police Department be a State expense? 

5 MR. BROOKS: That was one, if required or 

6 established by the State, that wss one of the things that 

7 was discussed last time as one of the things that V70uld 

8 be desirable for the State to pay for if the State V7ere 

9 going to require it. 

10 THE CH.AIRMAN: The State does provide for it. 

11 MR. CLAGETT: If the State V7ants to pay for it, 

12 they can leave it to Baltiiaore City and stay out of it 

13 which they ought to. 

14 DR. BURDSTTE: Didn't 1 understand you to say, 

15 make the State pay for municipal courts? Haven't we 

16 already provided for that by the provision that the County 

17 shall have no assessing power? 

18 THE CHAII^IAN: Yes. 

19 MR. BOND: The v7hole matter of contributions 

20 by subdivisions is a matter of budgeting. You have the 

21 James, Cooper, and other formulas. I think it is too 



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1 detailed and should not be In the Constitution. 

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bard? 

3 DR. BARD: What would happen to the grant in 
4: aids program? It would be State owned, the proportional 

5 grant in aid. 

6 MRS. BOTHE: VJhat is the point of it? 

7 MR. CLAGETT: The point of it really is to 

8 keep the State from moving into an exercise of local 

9 affairs without paying for it, and if they see fit to do 
so, they can provide the funding, rather than impose upon 

11 the Counties responsibilities and salaries and offices 

1^ v^hich the Counties do not want. 

13 MRS. BOTHE: Vie are pretty well restricted 

14 now. 

15 THE CHAIR.mN: Mr. Delia? 

16 MR. DELLA: Mr. ChaiiTnan, I think this Section 

17 is going to create c,n av7ful lot of problem. Many of the 

18 Counties come down after different divisions are incor- 

19 porated that have to be passed by the General Assembly, 

20 new jobs created, et cetera. This Section could be 

21 interpreted, because it is being set up by the General 



10 



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398 



1 Assembly, the General Assembly V7ill be obligated to pay 

2 expenses on it. I have found that when the State itself 

3 sets up an operation, they generally provide the money 
^ to take care of that operation, and I don't think there 

5 is going to be any problem; if you delete this or leave 

6 it out, I think it would be better than if you left it in. 
V THE CHAIRI'IAN: Mr. Brooks? 

8 MR. BROOKS: One reason the municipalities, a 

9 lot of them, have had the Legislature establish jobs 

10 that they have requested them heretofore was because of 

11 the lack of Hoi^ie Rule powers that will be granted under th 

12 new Constitution, so that under the nev7 Constitution, 

13 they have all the powers to establish v;hatever offices the^ 

14 want. Another area of consideration that V7as discussed 

15 back in May, ':i;hich is a good example of what this addressed; 

16 itself to in regards to elections, for instance, is the 
IV provision at tlie present time by the State of various 

18 special elections froin time to time. The history in Mary 

19 land is that the State has never paid for the cost of a 

20 special election, vjhich it has author ijjed or called for 

21 through general public lav;s in the State. All of this 



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33SL 



1 expense has always been placed upon local government, 

2 which means that when special elections are called during 

3 the midst of a fiscal year of local municipalities, 

4 the local governments have to absorb into the budget 

5 that is already drawn up and allocated the cost of a 

6 special election. One of the effects of this, as I recall 

7 the discussion, was that this would mandate that if the 

it 

8 State provides for a special election, thenA70uld also 

9 have to furnish the cost for holding such an election, 

10 and as V7e mentioned before, the cost of these today are 

11 running something like $750,000 to a million dollars of 

12 expenses, to give you some idea of one area of State ira- 

13 position of expenises. 

14 MR. DELLA: Where would the State get the 

15 money any more than the municipality or a County would 

16 get it? 

17 MR. BROOKS: Out of its budget if it saw fit 

18 to provide for the service . 

19 MR. CLAGETT: Or out of its surplus. 

20 DR. BURDETTE: That is exempt, isn't it? 

21 MR. CLAGETT: Specifically provided for; only 



Court R.po,ur, Baltimore 2. M.ryUnd 



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1 local Boards of Education are exempted. 

2 DR. BURDETTE: Except local Boards of Educa- 

3 tion or elections. 

^ MR. CLAGETT: There, a comma there. 

6 MR. BOND: Mr. Chairman, this goes to the 

6 whole cornerstone of taxation and the tax structure of the 

7 State and does not belong in the Constitution. 

8 THE CHAIRMAN: We have no motion before us at 

9 the moment. Does anybody desire to make a motion so we 

10 can act? 

11 MR. CLAGETT: I so move, Mr. Chairman. 

12 THE CHAIRMAN: What? 

13 MR. CLAGETT: I move that the Committee on 
1^ Style determine the appropriate place for the Section 

15 blank, appearing on Page 4 and on Page 21 as drafted by 

16 the Committee, except that might be able to take the 

17 phrase, and the provision for acceptance of local Boards 

18 of Education, and put it down, to avoid Dr. Burdette's 

19 objection. 

20 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it that somewhere in that 

21 long motion is intended the approval of this Section? 



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401 






1 


MR. CLAGETT: I think the motion has been 






2 


very clear. 






3 


MR. GENTRY: An appropriate place. 






4 


THE CHAIRMAN: Is there a second? Is there 






5 


a second? 






6 


MR. DELLA: I will second so you can get a 






7 


vote on it . 






8 


THE CHAIRMAN: Any further discussion? 






9 


MRS. BOTHE: Has there been any discussion 






10 


with the Finance Coiiaiiittee on this subject? 






11 


MR. CLAGETT: The Finance Committee referred 






12 


it back to us. They said it was our problem. 






13 


MR. BOND: I don't remember that. I am on the 






14 


Finance Committee. 






15 


MRS. FREEDLANDSR: The Chairman spoke for the 






16 


Committee. 






17 


MR. CLAGETT: He told us it was our problem so 






18 


we have met the problem. 






19 


MRS. BOTHE: I don't know what the implications 






20 


of a vote on this are. I am inclined not to like it. 






21 


MR. BOND: Mr. Chairman, I will move a substi- 






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1 


tute motion if I may, just to move it forward. I move 




2 


that the provision not be included in the Constitution. 




3 


THE CHAIRMAN; That is the same as a negative 




4 


vote on the motion, I would say. 




5 


MR. BOND: All right. / 




6 


1 
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? 




7 


A vote Aye is a vote approving the substance of this 




8 


Section with a direction to the Committee on Style to 




9 


find an appropriate place for it in the Constitution. 




10 


A vote No -- 




11 


MR. CLAGETT: Presumably the Legislative 




12 


Committee . 




13 


THE CHAIRMAN: A vote No is a vote disapprov- 




14 


ing this Section. Are we clear on that? A vote Aye 




15 


approves; a vote No disapproves. All in favor, signify 




16 


by a show of hands. 




17 


MR. BROOKS: Three. 




18 


THE CHAIRMAN: Contrary? 




19 


MR. BROOKS: Eleven. 




20 


THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is lose, 3 to 11. 




21 


Anything further on your Report, Mr. Clagett? 






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1 MR. CLAGETT: Thank goodness, Mr. Chairman, 

2 no. 

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me say tv70 things: First, 
^ that I am very grateful to all of you for your patience. 

5 We are an hour behind the time we said we would adjourn 

6 any of these meetings. Secondly, the apologies of both 
V myself and of Mr. Brooks for so completely misjudging 

8 the meeting. V7e thought that it would be possible to 

9 finish by late afternoon, and obviously, we can't even 
^^ finish in three sessions. 
^^ This seriously poses a problem. In view of 

the earlier discussion, I don't see how we can have a 

13 meeting prior to December 3. We will have a meeting on 

^^ December 3. It seems to me now that in all likelihood 

15 that will have to be a two-day meeting. It will still 

16 have to be the wrap up, so far as a meeting of the Com- 

17 mission is concerned. 

18 At this hour of the night I would be loath to 

19 ask for a show of hands as to whether the two-day meeting 

20 should be Friday, Saturday, or Saturday, Sunday. I would 
rather take a poll when you are feeling a little better 



12 



21 



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^ and your minds are fresher. 

^ Is there anything anybody else wants to bring 

3 up? 

^ MRS. FREEDLANDER: Mr. Chairraan, are you going 

5 to reconsider the selection of delegates to the Conven- 

® tion at the next meeting? 

'^ THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. This is a matter I would 

° like to consider. Has Mr. Scanlan had to leave? 

^ MR. BROOKS: Yes. 

^^ THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to mention that 

to you. I am glad you reminded me of it . I have been 
receiving, Mr. Brooks has been receiving, and I daresay 

^^ most Members of the Commission has been receiving a 

•^^ tremendous feedback from the action of the Coiraiission in 

^^ recommending that delegates be elected on a County\7ide 

^^ basis. I still do not know what the proper or best 

^'^ method is. I think there are indications that there will 
18 

^^ election as delegates to the Convention, and curiously 

enough, the indications that I have received are that ther 



11 
12 



20 



be a very large numberof persons anxious to file for 



will be a very large number of highly qualified persons, 



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405 



1 and at least a substantial number of persons as to whom 

2 \je would not raake that statement . 

3 This poses a problem, because the sheer force 
^ of numbers, and the resultant dispersal of the total 
5 vote among a large number increases the possibility that 
^ a person supported by little other than a determined 
"^ group of people, will be elected. 

8 I have talked to a number of people in influ*- 

^ ential and political matters, without getting from any- 
body what seems to be a surefire answer. I suggest that 

^^ all of you consider Countywide, district election and 

^^ a mixture of both. That is, a mixture of Countywide and 

13 district, so that in a given County you might have a 

1^ certain number elected Count)ni;ide and a certain number 

15 by districts. The situation in Baltimore City is even 

16 further complicated, but it might lend itself to something 
1*7 of that sort. 

18 In addition, I think that all of you are 

19 probably receiving inquiries from persons interested in 

20 running for election, asking what steps are being taken 

21 to encourage people to run, et cetera. We have at the 



10 



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1 office received many such inquiries, and we have been 

2 attempting to avoid having any particular groups jell 

3 on any method or groups of candidates at the present time. 
^ V7e think it is too early, and it seems very likely that 

5 it is going to. be necessary to have some coordination 

6 among the various groups which would be supporting candi- 
V dacy of very promising delegates, 

8 In addition, we will undoubtedly have to work 

9 out in cooperation with the Legislature and with the 

10 political parties some method of endorsement, either of 

11 slates or of procedures for selecting qualified candidates 

12 by the leaders of both parties. 

13 This is one of the reasons why it seems to me 
14: that it is going to be imperative that the next meeting 

16 be a tv70-day session. The questions are crucial. I don't 

16 think the answers are easy to come by, and I think it is 

17 going to require considerable discussion, so I suggest 

18 that you talk to as many people as you can and get their 

19 viev7S , and be doing a great deal of thinking about it be- 

20 tween now and December 3. 



21 



MR. DELLA: It will be on the agenda for the 
no::t meeting:? — 



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Coi/rl Reforlfit Billimore 2, M«nUnd «inf on 





407 


1 


THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, indeed. 


2 


DR. BARD: Is there a possibility, Mr. Chair- 


3 


man, we might have a portion of one of the two days at 


4- 


Goucher? 


5 


THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure I follow you. 


6 


DR. BARD: There will be a meeting at Goucher 


7 


College on the 9th and 10th, is that correct? 


8 


THE CHAIRMAN: That is correct. 


9 


MR. BROOKS: Not of the Commission, necessarily. 


10 


The Commission Members will be invited. 


11 


DR. BARD: I understand that. What I am 


12 


thinking is, since a goodly number of us might 


13 


be there on the 10th, would there be a possibility since 


14 


that will be a short one -- 


15 


THE CHAIRMAN: I am not so sure it will be a 


16 


short one. 


17 


MR. CLAGETT: What dates are those dates? 


18 


MR. BROOKS: Friday and Saturday, 9th and 


19 


10th. 


20 


THE CHAIRMAN: One other thing that I very much 


21 


hope we can do will be to get a clean copy of all the 




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408 




1 


constitutional provisions thus far approved and send it 




2 


to you. Then I would greatly appreciate it if each man 




3 


and woman would consider he or himself a Committee of one 




4 


to hunt for the omissions and the oversights and the 




5 


errors that are bound to creep in. 




6 


MR. HAILE: May I make a suggestion on that 




7 


particular copy, that you number the lines on each page, 




8 


please? 




9 


THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 




10 


MR. BROOKS: We get a lot of questions concern- 




11 


ing a lot of offices of profit and trust. One of the 




12 


research assistants is compiling a table which V7e hope 




13 


to mimeograph and make available as soon as possible, but 




14 


in the meantime, there are a lot of questions concerning 




15 


this. There have been literally hundreds of opinions 




16 


rendered by the Attorney Generalls office on numerous 




17 


specific offices, all the way from Town Commissioners 




18 


to County Commissioners, up through the trustees of uni- 




19 


versities, et cetera, on which of necessity offices are 




20 


offices of profit or trust, and as you might imagine, it 




21 


is quite a hodgepodge. It is no particular system, but 


_ 




THE JACK SALOMON REPORTING SERVICE 
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Court Rcporleri Billimore 2, M«r>Un!i '""1 "-i 







409 


1 


1 


we do have that information, and some of you may get 




2 


inquiries wanting to know about particular positions, and 




3 


we hope to have this as refined as possible in order to 




4 


answer these questions. 


1 


5 


THE CHAIRMAN: The closest one I think you in- 




6 


dicated, John, V7as the Convention to ratify the Twenty- 




7 


first Amendment. 




8 


MR. BROOKS: In regard to whether or not the 




9 


office of Convention delegate is an office of profit or 




• 10 


trust, there was a Convention some years ago to ratify 




11 


the Twenty-second Amendment, where the Attorney General 




12 


rules that, being a delegate, even though there was no 




13 


compensation to such a convention was an office of profit 




14 


or trust as far as that analogy is concerned, with being 




15 


a delegate to the Constitutional Convention is concerned. 




16 


THE CHAIRl-IAN: I might add that this problem 




17 


doesn't seem to plague othei States at all. They have 




18 


judges, legislators and numerous other officeholders as 




19 


delegates to the convention, and accepted as the thing. 




20 


MR. CLAGETT: Actually, what is the philosophy 




21 


that says that a holder of another office of trust can't 






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Court Kcporleri Billimore 2, MiryUnd tiinifvi 







410 




1 


be a delegate to the Convention? 




2 


MR. BROOKS: This is the Maryland Constitution. 




5 


THE CHAIRI'IAN: Article 45 of the Declaration 




4 


of Rights and Section 35 of Article 3. 


{ 


5 


MR. HOFF: The philosophy is one of conflict 




6 


of interest. 




7 


DR. BARD: That is right. Do V7e need a motion 




8 


to adjourn? 




9 


THE CHAIRMAN: No. Thank you very much. 




10 


(Meeting concluded.) 




11 






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14 


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